Soviet use of Hurricane and Spitfire

[Freebird]

Don't want to be picky, but...
Wasn't it the other way around? Russkies did have a lot of hardware, most of it being comparable or better then German have had. It was idiotic strategy that put 10 000* planes (and other stuff) at silver plate for Germans. Russkies have lost 75% of their military hardware in 1941, so anything they could get was seen a blessing.

*out of some 15 thousands in the inventory.

Well, both in some ways. As far as tanks they did have good equipment {KV's, T-34's} but didn't know how to use it.

As far as aircraft, due to ineptitude unpreparedness they lost a big chunk of their aircraft on the ground. The further mounting losses of aircraft meant that they were short of modern fighters. None of the newest Soviet fighters at the outset of war {Lagg3's Yak 1's Mig 3's) were as good as the Me109, at least not in Soviet hands. {Not that the Hurricane was great either, but enough inferior aircraft can still bring down better ones.}

I don't know how many of you have been in former Soviet countries, but I've been told straight to my face that the British sat around drinking tea, and the Americans chewing bubble gum while the Soviets did all the fighting. Also told that the UK US sent nothing to the USSR until 1944, when we already knew they would win.

This is the kind of BS that was taught in their schools. Gets my hackles up, considering that Mum's uncle was KIA in the war, and he escorted Murmansk convoys in 1941.

 

[Freebird]

Could very well be, it was on this forum .

Now I'd really like to see that!

And check who is writing. Posts from fly boy are not quite as authoritative as FLYBOYJ

 

[KrazyKraut]

Now I'd really like to see that!

I just found it, but it's on the German wikipedia page, so apologies to the forum.

"Der Unterschied in der Bewertung der Piloten könnte nicht größer sein: die Amerikaner nannten die Maschine "iron dog" und versuchten, sie loszuwerden; es gab Fälle von mutwilliger Zerstörung von Airacobras durch die eigenen Piloten."

Which roughly translates into:

"the difference in evaluation by the pilots couldn't be bigger: the americans called the machine "iron dog" and tried to get rid of it; there were cases of deliberate destruction by own pilots."

The article has a few sources, but the statement in question doesn't list any reference.

 

[Nightwitch]

I don't know how many of you have been in former Soviet countries, but I've been told straight to my face that the British sat around drinking tea, and the Americans chewing bubble gum while the Soviets did all the fighting. Also told that the UK US sent nothing to the USSR until 1944, when we already knew they would win.

This is the kind of BS that was taught in their schools. Gets my hackles up, considering that Mum's uncle was KIA in the war, and he escorted Murmansk convoys in 1941.

I was taking pictures of the I-16 at an air museum and was told by a couple of older American guys that the Americans won the air war and that the Russians didn't do anything at all and that "we" did all the work for them. Kind of gets my hackles up considering I've met some Soviet pilots who were wounded in the line of duty, some of whom also had their families killed by the Germans. So, it's a two-way street.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And check who is writing. Posts from fly boy are not quite as authoritative as FLYBOYJ

"NOT QUITE" Make that clear!

 

[Freebird]

I was taking pictures of the I-16 at an air museum and was told by a couple of older American guys that the Americans won the air war and that the Russians didn't do anything at all and that "we" did all the work for them. Kind of gets my hackles up considering I've met some Soviet pilots who were wounded in the line of duty, some of whom also had their families killed by the Germans. So, it's a two-way street.

Agreed. My wife relatives are Russian, so I understand quite well the sacrifices they made, as did the UK US as well

"NOT QUITE" Make that clear!

Yep, hopefully people will notice the difference


No sources on Wikipedia, gosh that's a surprise....

 

[pbfoot]

I was taking pictures of the I-16 at an air museum and was told by a couple of older American guys that the Americans won the air war and that the Russians didn't do anything at all and that "we" did all the work for them. Kind of gets my hackles up considering I've met some Soviet pilots who were wounded in the line of duty, some of whom also had their families killed by the Germans. So, it's a two-way street.

The Russians certainly did a great deal but then again the were they not a little at fault for the diasaster they faced , they invaded Poland and the Baltic nations tried having a go at Finland and signed the non Agression Pact with the Germans

 

[Nightwitch]

The Russians certainly did a great deal but then again the were they not a little at fault for the diasaster they faced , they invaded Poland and the Baltic nations tried having a go at Finland and signed the non Agression Pact with the Germans

Yes, and the British and the French "had it coming" because they appeased the Germans, let them reoccupy the Sudetenland and the Rhineland, and annex several small central European countries...

 

[pbfoot]

Yes, and the British and the French "had it coming" because they appeased the Germans, let them reoccupy the Sudetenland and the Rhineland, and annex several small central European countries...

The Soviet Union of that era was a nasty piece of work remember they were no better then the Nazis maybe worse as they even starved how many of their own people in the Ukraine 6 7 8 million . God forbid we remember Katyn

 

[Nightwitch]

The Soviet Union of that era was a nasty piece of work remember they were no better then the Nazis maybe worse as they even starved how many of their own people in the Ukraine 6 7 8 million . God forbid we remember Katyn

They were better than the Nazis. They weren't good, but I'm sick of people trying to equate a famine in the Soviet Union with systematic murder. Even the GULAG system paled in comparison to Nazi concentration camps. Moreover, this discussion is about Soviet planes and pilots. Many of the planes were designed by men who were themselves imprisoned by the state, and were victims of the state. The pilots themselves had nothing whatsoever to do with the NKVD or the political hierarchy in place in the Soviet Union. So, to say that the people we're discussing deserved it because their government sucked is pretty ridiculous.

 

[JoeB]

I read a story once about I think USAAF pilots deliberatly sabotaging their own P-39s to be re-equipped with P-40s,...

Opinions differ.

Yeah doubtful especially since I don't recall any units first equipped with P-39's then P-40's... Opinions did differ, and the P-40 was the more popular in USAAF in general, no question about that.

One solidly statistically based reason was much higher fatal accident rate in the P-39; and that's also backed by many first hand accounts of how much trickier the P-39 could be wrt to stall/spin. That probably mattered less to certain pilots more skilled in basic stick and rudder piloting. It might be like USN pilots who preferred the SB2C to the SBD: there were some, but they tended to be ones who could fly especially well or were experienced. Otherwise the more dangerous flying characteristics of the SB2C tended to outweigh any other advantage.

As mentioned above, the problem with 37mm casing chute which caused jams was apparently fixed by the time significant numbers of 37mm P-39's served with them, since the Soviets don't seem to have complained about i

But the P-39 and P-40 were not so different, and the combat results in actually similar units fighting against similar opposition were not so different.

Joe

 

[Amsel]

The stall was something to do with the balance in the a/c with the prop shaft running through the a/c and the engine behind the pilot. It was a great training a/c except for the unrecoverable stall.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The stall was something to do with the balance in the a/c with the prop shaft running through the a/c and the engine behind the pilot. It was a great training a/c except for the unrecoverable stall.

The P-39 was very sensitive around its c/g and actually had 2 cg envelopes. Somewhere on the archives I have this posted.

 

[Amsel]

I'll have to look for it. Thanks.

 

[Waynos]

If it wasn't for the Soviets there could not have been a Luftwaffe, thus no aggression from Germany at all.

*stands back and waits*

 

[glennasher]

If it wasn't for the Soviets there could not have been a Luftwaffe, thus no aggression from Germany at all.

*stands back and waits*

ZING , accurate, too....................

 

[Glider]

If I remember correctly the first Spitfires that were sent to Russia were second hand aircraft which had already seen service with the RAF. Assuming this is the case I cannot say I blame the Russians for beng less than impressed with what they were sent, plus of course the Spit V was not effective against the 109G and Fw190.
I know that later deliveries were new aircraft but once anything has a poor reputation, it takes a lot to change that reputation

 

[Nightwitch]

If it wasn't for the Soviets there could not have been a Luftwaffe, thus no aggression from Germany at all.

*stands back and waits*

Why does everyone have to find excuses for Nazi aggression, trying to blame it on anyone other than those directly responsible? It's really disgusting the amount of Nazi apologetics that get thrown about on forums like these. And make no mistake, Waynos, that's what your statement is - Nazi apologetics.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Nightwitch - I don't even understand what: "If it wasn't for the Soviets there could not have been a Luftwaffe, thus no aggression from Germany at all.", actually means - much less whether it's apologetics. Maybe I'm dense but, like HoHuns graphs, I'd like clarity and understanding.

Please, what is Waynos trying to convey in his butchered logic...?

And is your mutual relationship with him permanently damaged, or do you still have mutual interests?

Michael

 

[MacArther]

I'm not entirely possitive on this, but didn't Soviet P-39's have a lighter overall weight due to stripping off what was seen as non-essential? Also, didn't Soviet P-39s also usually have the Soviet 23mm gun in lieu of the 37mm?