SOVIETS DISSING THE FW 190A-4
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Wonder how many Soviet pilots died because they believed this propeganda...
parsifal
Colonel
I don't see the problem with it. FW190s were inferior in terms of climb and speed to some of the later VVS types, The video gives the german aircraft its due, principally its heavy broadside and outlines some of its wealnesses, namely its lack of protection from some angles and somewhat poor manouverability. These are all valid points to make with respect to the FW190.
We should not forget that from all causes, a lot of German losses were suffered on the eastern front, and more importantly, the LW fighters proved incapable of achieving air dominance over their own airspace, much less the airspace over Soviet forces. FW 190 failings share in that defeat.
We should not forget that from all causes, a lot of German losses were suffered on the eastern front, and more importantly, the LW fighters proved incapable of achieving air dominance over their own airspace, much less the airspace over Soviet forces. FW 190 failings share in that defeat.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Um...this video is from 1940 - at that point in time, exactly which Soviet fighter was it inferior to?
The Fw190A-4 had already proven it's worth against the British, so what did the Soviets have in 1940?
The LaGG-1, I-16, YaK-1 were not really world beaters, to be honest...
The Fw190A-4 had already proven it's worth against the British, so what did the Soviets have in 1940?
The LaGG-1, I-16, YaK-1 were not really world beaters, to be honest...
parsifal
Colonel
Except that the video is not from 1940. I believe there is a mistranslation somewhere...…although I am not absolutely certain where the mistake occurs, the references to this video being "volume 3" suggests to me that the first video dated back to 1941, the second from 1942 and the third from 1943 . From other sources, I know that the VVS did not complete its report on the FW190 A4 until mid 1943, and this training film appears to be part of that.
The assessment is from mid 1943. Some evidence to support that can be derived from the fact that they are assessing the A-4 subtype, which did not fall into VVS control until 1943. They also assess the armament as 2x LMG and 4 x 20mm cannon. The versions in existence 1940-41 were not so equipped
The A-4 was introduced July 1942, hardly in time to make any appreciable difference "over Britain". It was quite effective in the defensive battles over western Europe, though by that date, hardly decisive (I note that the strike groups of western Europe had pulled away from their coastal deployments by then....if the FW 190 had been so decisive, this would not have been necessary. For reasons outlined below, it will become apparent that as a weapon, the FW190 was not particualalry effective in the sir defence role either). The lions share of damage to BC and 2 group had occurred in the previous year and in the early part of 1942. The fighter of choice at these times in the west was mainly the Me109, not the FW 190. The FW 190 had enjoyed some success in high speed low level hit and run nuisance raids in early 1942, but these activities, whilst audacious, were in no way decisive, or likely to teach the british anything they did not already know (though I would concede that the disclosure of the FW 190 and its superb performance did inflict something of a temporary inferiority complex over fighter command for a short while). The British answer to these sneak attacks were to introduce the spitfire IX and Typhoon (as a fighter) and to use, in increasing numbers, high performance bombers like the mosquito BIV (for daylight tactical operations), and for their main bomber forces to pile on the pressure at night. After the first 1000 bomber raids back in March, these night attacks were beginning to bite, in the sense that the LW was at last forced to pour more resources into flak defences and air defence over the reich….over 1million men in the reich defences in 1942 alone, with 80% of the flak divisions were in the west or the Reich. About 70% of Ordinance production in 1942 was being diverted to flak units, and more than 50% of ammunition production. FW190 or any other German fighter was not effective from that standpoint. The Germans by July 1942 were pouring 52% of their defence expenditure into defending their country from air attack whilst the british were pouring just 12% of their budget into attacking these defences. I fail to see how the FW190, or any other weapon system for that matter can be deemed as cost effective in air defence in 1942, given those stark realities. Remove the romance from the equation and I would say the FW 190 was an abject failure.....
So exactly how did the A-4 "teach the British a lesson?" And how did the FW190 A-4 get to 1940 in time for assessment? Perhaps the Germans had access to a time machine...….And do your dismissals of Soviet front line fighters for 1943 hold true as well. if so, how did the germans still manage to lose?
The assessment is from mid 1943. Some evidence to support that can be derived from the fact that they are assessing the A-4 subtype, which did not fall into VVS control until 1943. They also assess the armament as 2x LMG and 4 x 20mm cannon. The versions in existence 1940-41 were not so equipped
The A-4 was introduced July 1942, hardly in time to make any appreciable difference "over Britain". It was quite effective in the defensive battles over western Europe, though by that date, hardly decisive (I note that the strike groups of western Europe had pulled away from their coastal deployments by then....if the FW 190 had been so decisive, this would not have been necessary. For reasons outlined below, it will become apparent that as a weapon, the FW190 was not particualalry effective in the sir defence role either). The lions share of damage to BC and 2 group had occurred in the previous year and in the early part of 1942. The fighter of choice at these times in the west was mainly the Me109, not the FW 190. The FW 190 had enjoyed some success in high speed low level hit and run nuisance raids in early 1942, but these activities, whilst audacious, were in no way decisive, or likely to teach the british anything they did not already know (though I would concede that the disclosure of the FW 190 and its superb performance did inflict something of a temporary inferiority complex over fighter command for a short while). The British answer to these sneak attacks were to introduce the spitfire IX and Typhoon (as a fighter) and to use, in increasing numbers, high performance bombers like the mosquito BIV (for daylight tactical operations), and for their main bomber forces to pile on the pressure at night. After the first 1000 bomber raids back in March, these night attacks were beginning to bite, in the sense that the LW was at last forced to pour more resources into flak defences and air defence over the reich….over 1million men in the reich defences in 1942 alone, with 80% of the flak divisions were in the west or the Reich. About 70% of Ordinance production in 1942 was being diverted to flak units, and more than 50% of ammunition production. FW190 or any other German fighter was not effective from that standpoint. The Germans by July 1942 were pouring 52% of their defence expenditure into defending their country from air attack whilst the british were pouring just 12% of their budget into attacking these defences. I fail to see how the FW190, or any other weapon system for that matter can be deemed as cost effective in air defence in 1942, given those stark realities. Remove the romance from the equation and I would say the FW 190 was an abject failure.....
So exactly how did the A-4 "teach the British a lesson?" And how did the FW190 A-4 get to 1940 in time for assessment? Perhaps the Germans had access to a time machine...….And do your dismissals of Soviet front line fighters for 1943 hold true as well. if so, how did the germans still manage to lose?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ok...first of all, please, find where I stated that the Fw190 "taught the British a lesson".
As soon as you find where I made that statement, we'll continue the conversation
As soon as you find where I made that statement, we'll continue the conversation
parsifal
Colonel
your right, I did misquote you. You didn't say the FW190 taught the british a lesson. I apologise for misquoting you.
What you did say was..." The Fw190A-4 had already proven it's worth against the British". My response is in reference to that claim. It cost the germans substantially more of their available resources to form a defence against the british, of which the FW 190 was a part, than the British were spending attacking them. How is that proving its worth (the FW190)? If anything it was a costly failure.....from the perspective of a cost benefit analysis
What you did say was..." The Fw190A-4 had already proven it's worth against the British". My response is in reference to that claim. It cost the germans substantially more of their available resources to form a defence against the british, of which the FW 190 was a part, than the British were spending attacking them. How is that proving its worth (the FW190)? If anything it was a costly failure.....from the perspective of a cost benefit analysis
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I whole-heartily disagree.
The Fw190 caught the Allies off guard when it debuted and it was only the Typhoon and the Spitfire Mk.IX that were able to counter it at low to medium altitudes on even terms.
In regards to the Soviet Union, that "informational film" was made in segments, or "parts" and the one Geo shared was the part regarding the Fw190. The other parts covered such types as the Bf109, Bf110, Ju87, etc. Why the early date on the film, I have no idea. My grasp of Russian is very limited as Bulgarian shares some commonalities, but not much beyond that.
The Soviets would have encountered the Fw190 during the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, and at that time, the early "A" marks, through A-4 would have been employed.
So we have to look and see what the VVS would have had on hand to counter the "poor performing" Fw190 at that point in time (summer 1941).
I-16
I-153
LaGG-1
LaGG-3
MiG-1
MiG-3
YaK-1
These were not world-class fighters by any stretch of the imagination and several of the types were virtually wiped out by the Luftwaffe in the early days of the invasion. It would not be until Lend-Lease and improved native development (La-5/7, Yak-7/9, etc.) that the Soviets would regain air superiority, but this was would be a few years in the making.
The Fw190 caught the Allies off guard when it debuted and it was only the Typhoon and the Spitfire Mk.IX that were able to counter it at low to medium altitudes on even terms.
In regards to the Soviet Union, that "informational film" was made in segments, or "parts" and the one Geo shared was the part regarding the Fw190. The other parts covered such types as the Bf109, Bf110, Ju87, etc. Why the early date on the film, I have no idea. My grasp of Russian is very limited as Bulgarian shares some commonalities, but not much beyond that.
The Soviets would have encountered the Fw190 during the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, and at that time, the early "A" marks, through A-4 would have been employed.
So we have to look and see what the VVS would have had on hand to counter the "poor performing" Fw190 at that point in time (summer 1941).
I-16
I-153
LaGG-1
LaGG-3
MiG-1
MiG-3
YaK-1
These were not world-class fighters by any stretch of the imagination and several of the types were virtually wiped out by the Luftwaffe in the early days of the invasion. It would not be until Lend-Lease and improved native development (La-5/7, Yak-7/9, etc.) that the Soviets would regain air superiority, but this was would be a few years in the making.
parsifal
Colonel
A4 service entry was July 1942. the first Fw190. of any type was not captured until just before Stalingrad. Evaluation of the FW 190 did not occur until early 1943 , and the report to which this film appears to rely on for its details was not finished until May 1943 (as I recall).
It is simply not possible for the Soviets to have produced such a detailed report on the capabilities of the FW 190 until that report became available, and by that time the types you listed for the Soviets, were no longer first line equipment
subtype entered production,
Moreover, no production versions of the FW 190 were ready for the initial invasion of the SU. The A-1 sub type was the first to enter series production, in June 1941 until October 1941. the initial order was for 100 a/c, but I am fairly certain less than 50 entered squadron service.
From October 1941, the A-2 entered production with a total of 153 completed by the end of the year. To the end of July 1942, despite Udets earlier exhortations, only about 1000 of the type had been built.
There is no argument that in the early part of 1942, the type represented a technological advantage for the LW, in both the east and west however the numbers were so limited as to be not relevant. By the time this film was made, the FW 190 was already beginning to be outclassed in both TOs. The Yak3, Yak7, LA 5 and LA5FN were its more usual opponents and against this its weaknesses were apparent, though its strengths and the general superiority of LW training in the east continued to make them a competent, if not outstanding addition to the LW fighter forces in the east
It is simply not possible for the Soviets to have produced such a detailed report on the capabilities of the FW 190 until that report became available, and by that time the types you listed for the Soviets, were no longer first line equipment
subtype entered production,
Moreover, no production versions of the FW 190 were ready for the initial invasion of the SU. The A-1 sub type was the first to enter series production, in June 1941 until October 1941. the initial order was for 100 a/c, but I am fairly certain less than 50 entered squadron service.
From October 1941, the A-2 entered production with a total of 153 completed by the end of the year. To the end of July 1942, despite Udets earlier exhortations, only about 1000 of the type had been built.
There is no argument that in the early part of 1942, the type represented a technological advantage for the LW, in both the east and west however the numbers were so limited as to be not relevant. By the time this film was made, the FW 190 was already beginning to be outclassed in both TOs. The Yak3, Yak7, LA 5 and LA5FN were its more usual opponents and against this its weaknesses were apparent, though its strengths and the general superiority of LW training in the east continued to make them a competent, if not outstanding addition to the LW fighter forces in the east
Interesting!
parsifal
Colonel
This is a narrative from a not particularly great source (Osprey publishing) but it does give some depth on when and how the soviets became exposed to the FW 190
Osprey - Duel 39 - La-5-7 vs Fw 190, Eastern Front 1942-45 - PDF Free Download
Relevantly it states;
Perhaps more importantly, on 6 September I./JG 51 arrived on the Eastern Front with the first examples of an all new fighter type that would rival the La-5 for aerial supremacy – the Focke-Wulf Fw 190A. Like its Soviet rival, the Focke-Wulf was powered by an air-cooled radial engine of much the same horsepower in the form of the BMW 801. The new fighter was both fast and highly manoeuvrable, and was at its best at medium to low altitudes. In an effort to retain parity with the Bf 109G and Fw 190A, Lavochkin improved the reliability and performance of the Shvetsov engine, initially with the introduction of the M-82F, which gave the resulting La-5F better performance at lower altitudes thanks to its unlimited boost. Just as this variant entered service in late 1942, Lavochkin commenced flight-testing the definitive M-82FN-engined La-5FN. With direct fuel injection, the new motor was ten per cent more powerful than the standard M-82. And with most of the early structural and mechanical defects that plagued the La-5 now eradicated, the La-5FN could rival – and in some instances better – the performance of the Bf 109G-6 and Fw 190A-5 by the summer of 1943. Although the Focke-Wulf would remain a significant threat to the VVS-KA into early 1944, by then Soviet pilots had come to realise that most of the fighter units equipped with the Fw 190 had been posted back to Germany to defend its cities against daylight bomber raids being mounted by the USAAF's Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces. Indeed, by the spring of 1944 most Fw 190-equipped Gruppen on the Eastern Front were Schlacht (ground attack) units. These machines were not flown by Experten who had amassed vast experience engaging Soviet fighters, but by ex-Ju 87 and Hs 129 pilots with only limited knowledge of aerial combat. The Focke-Wulf gradually became a less dangerous foe for Soviet fighter pilots as a result, although the Bf 109G/K remained a threat through to war's end. The VVS-KA enjoyed even greater supremacy in the air from the autumn of 1944 following the introduction of the La-7. Flight-testing of the new Lavochkin fighter at the VVS NII KA (Red Army Air Force Scientific Research Institute) showed that its performance was superior to any version of the Bf 109 or Fw 190 fielded by the Luftwaffe at the altitudes at which combat occurred on the Eastern Front. Indeed, it could be claimed that the La-7 was the best Soviet fighter in series production in May 1945.
29 September (1942) Hauptmann Heinrich Krafft, gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 51, claims an I-16 as the Fw 190's first victory on the Eastern Front.
1943 January
8 February
March
March
July
22 August
14 October
3 November
I./JG 54 flies in to Krasnogvardeisk, on the Leningrad front, having re-equipped with Fw 190A-4s. JGs 51 and 54 have around 140 Focke-Wulfs on strength between them by month-end. La-5 pilot Lt P. A. Grazhdaninov of 210th IAD's 169th IAP is credited with downing the first Fw 190 to fall in Soviet-held territory. Fw 190G ground attack variant enters service on the Eastern Front with Schlachtgeschwader 1, and the type plays a key role in the tank battle of Kursk in early July. First examples of the La-5F, fitted with M-82F 'boosted' engine, reach frontline units from Factory No. 21 in Gorkiy. First series-production standard La-5FNs reach 32nd GIAP just in time to participate in the Battle of Kursk. During the latter the regiment's pilots fly 25 missions and bring down 33 German aircraft, including 21 Fw 190s, for the loss of six La-5FNs. Future ranking Soviet ace I. N. Kozhedub of 240th IAP destroys his first Fw 190, taking his tally to nine overall. Hauptmann Walter Nowotny of I./JG 54 claims six victories (two of which are La-5s) to become the first fighter pilot to achieve 250 kills. Leutnant Emil 'Bully' Lang of 5./JG 54 claims a staggering 17 victories (including three La-5s) during the course of four missions around Kiev.
1944 1 February
September
La-7 prototype successfully completes its first flight, and the aircraft soon passes flight-testing and is cleared for series production. 63rd GIAP gives the La-7 its combat debut, 30 aircraft being assigned to the regiment on the 1st Baltic Front. 462 sorties are flown during one month and 55 enemy aircraft shot down for the loss of eight La-7s.
1945 1 January
14 February
17 April
Of the 1,331 ground attack aircraft at the Luftwaffe's disposal, 1,077 are Fw 190Fs. Oberleutnant Otto Kittel of I./JG 54 is killed attacking an Il-2. He claimed 267 victories (including 30 La-5s) with the Fw 190, making him the type's most successful pilot. Maj Ivan Kozhedub, now serving with La-7-equipped 176th GIAP, downs two Fw 190s over Berlin to take his final tally to 62 victories. At least 14 of these were Fw 190s, 11 of them being claimed between 10 February and 17 April 1945.
An airframe checklist is consulted by a foreman and an assembly line worker in Factory No. 21 at Gorkiy in late 1944 as near-complete La-7s are prepared for roll-out following construction. Factories No. 99 in Ulan-Ude and No. 391 in Moscow also built La-7s.
Osprey - Duel 39 - La-5-7 vs Fw 190, Eastern Front 1942-45 - PDF Free Download
Relevantly it states;
Perhaps more importantly, on 6 September I./JG 51 arrived on the Eastern Front with the first examples of an all new fighter type that would rival the La-5 for aerial supremacy – the Focke-Wulf Fw 190A. Like its Soviet rival, the Focke-Wulf was powered by an air-cooled radial engine of much the same horsepower in the form of the BMW 801. The new fighter was both fast and highly manoeuvrable, and was at its best at medium to low altitudes. In an effort to retain parity with the Bf 109G and Fw 190A, Lavochkin improved the reliability and performance of the Shvetsov engine, initially with the introduction of the M-82F, which gave the resulting La-5F better performance at lower altitudes thanks to its unlimited boost. Just as this variant entered service in late 1942, Lavochkin commenced flight-testing the definitive M-82FN-engined La-5FN. With direct fuel injection, the new motor was ten per cent more powerful than the standard M-82. And with most of the early structural and mechanical defects that plagued the La-5 now eradicated, the La-5FN could rival – and in some instances better – the performance of the Bf 109G-6 and Fw 190A-5 by the summer of 1943. Although the Focke-Wulf would remain a significant threat to the VVS-KA into early 1944, by then Soviet pilots had come to realise that most of the fighter units equipped with the Fw 190 had been posted back to Germany to defend its cities against daylight bomber raids being mounted by the USAAF's Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces. Indeed, by the spring of 1944 most Fw 190-equipped Gruppen on the Eastern Front were Schlacht (ground attack) units. These machines were not flown by Experten who had amassed vast experience engaging Soviet fighters, but by ex-Ju 87 and Hs 129 pilots with only limited knowledge of aerial combat. The Focke-Wulf gradually became a less dangerous foe for Soviet fighter pilots as a result, although the Bf 109G/K remained a threat through to war's end. The VVS-KA enjoyed even greater supremacy in the air from the autumn of 1944 following the introduction of the La-7. Flight-testing of the new Lavochkin fighter at the VVS NII KA (Red Army Air Force Scientific Research Institute) showed that its performance was superior to any version of the Bf 109 or Fw 190 fielded by the Luftwaffe at the altitudes at which combat occurred on the Eastern Front. Indeed, it could be claimed that the La-7 was the best Soviet fighter in series production in May 1945.
29 September (1942) Hauptmann Heinrich Krafft, gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 51, claims an I-16 as the Fw 190's first victory on the Eastern Front.
1943 January
8 February
March
March
July
22 August
14 October
3 November
I./JG 54 flies in to Krasnogvardeisk, on the Leningrad front, having re-equipped with Fw 190A-4s. JGs 51 and 54 have around 140 Focke-Wulfs on strength between them by month-end. La-5 pilot Lt P. A. Grazhdaninov of 210th IAD's 169th IAP is credited with downing the first Fw 190 to fall in Soviet-held territory. Fw 190G ground attack variant enters service on the Eastern Front with Schlachtgeschwader 1, and the type plays a key role in the tank battle of Kursk in early July. First examples of the La-5F, fitted with M-82F 'boosted' engine, reach frontline units from Factory No. 21 in Gorkiy. First series-production standard La-5FNs reach 32nd GIAP just in time to participate in the Battle of Kursk. During the latter the regiment's pilots fly 25 missions and bring down 33 German aircraft, including 21 Fw 190s, for the loss of six La-5FNs. Future ranking Soviet ace I. N. Kozhedub of 240th IAP destroys his first Fw 190, taking his tally to nine overall. Hauptmann Walter Nowotny of I./JG 54 claims six victories (two of which are La-5s) to become the first fighter pilot to achieve 250 kills. Leutnant Emil 'Bully' Lang of 5./JG 54 claims a staggering 17 victories (including three La-5s) during the course of four missions around Kiev.
1944 1 February
September
La-7 prototype successfully completes its first flight, and the aircraft soon passes flight-testing and is cleared for series production. 63rd GIAP gives the La-7 its combat debut, 30 aircraft being assigned to the regiment on the 1st Baltic Front. 462 sorties are flown during one month and 55 enemy aircraft shot down for the loss of eight La-7s.
1945 1 January
14 February
17 April
Of the 1,331 ground attack aircraft at the Luftwaffe's disposal, 1,077 are Fw 190Fs. Oberleutnant Otto Kittel of I./JG 54 is killed attacking an Il-2. He claimed 267 victories (including 30 La-5s) with the Fw 190, making him the type's most successful pilot. Maj Ivan Kozhedub, now serving with La-7-equipped 176th GIAP, downs two Fw 190s over Berlin to take his final tally to 62 victories. At least 14 of these were Fw 190s, 11 of them being claimed between 10 February and 17 April 1945.
An airframe checklist is consulted by a foreman and an assembly line worker in Factory No. 21 at Gorkiy in late 1944 as near-complete La-7s are prepared for roll-out following construction. Factories No. 99 in Ulan-Ude and No. 391 in Moscow also built La-7s.
parsifal
Colonel
And this is a discussion of the FW190 captured by the VVS in our own forum. Havent read this yet, but will
Soviet Test of captured JG 54 Fw 190A-4
Soviet Test of captured JG 54 Fw 190A-4
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