Spanish Civil War HE-51 color question

[Dave Goessling]

I pulled the a 1980 issue Hasegawa HE-51 out of the stash.

Building it basically OOB but with rigging and a few details. I want to use the kit decals for a Spanish Civil War machine.

The instructions show a single upper surface color (rather than the green/grey often seen). The instructions call out FS 30111 for this solid upper surface. That seems weird: FS30111 is an almost burnt sienna kind of red brown. Fed Std 595C 30111 Paint | Government Spec Color Match

The side view on the box shows a more typical dark green. https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/4/3/5/1020435-71-instructions.pdf (These are the Japanese instructions, but the English ones I have show the same profiles, etc.

I found one black and white photo of this machine in a profile article in an old issue of Air International. It does seem to be kind of a weird color...

Any guidance on this appreciated. I'd hate to do all the masking and paint the whole thing brown only to find it should be green!

Thanks in advance.

 

[fubar57]

"Luftwaffe Colours Volume One Section 2" says, "....Most early He-51s were finished in overall pale grey, but when the aircraft switched to the ground attack role a wide variety of camouflage schemes were adopted." Imma guessing RLM63

 

[Wurger]

Depending on the time and plane you may find eirther the three-tone camouflage on tops or two-tone one ( a couple of variations ) including the Italian-style mottling. The three-tone camo consisted of RLM 61, 62, 63 tones on tops mostly. The undersides were of the RLM 65. Initailly the He-51s were painted RLM 63 Green Grey overall for the camouflge 1935/1936. A couple of sources say it could be the RLM02 as well. However for the late camouflage the overall RLM 62 Green and the RLM 61 Dark Brown colours are also being reported.

RLM 02 - Grey Green
RLM 61 - Dark Brown,
RLM 62 - Green
RLM 63 - Green Grey
RLM 65 - Light Blue

In the case of the kite marked as 2-10 of the kit ... the overall RLM 63 or RLM 02.

 

[Wurger]

Unless you are talking about the pic series

the pic source: the net.

If it is the one please notice that he colours of the spinner are different from the one seen in the kit instruction. IMHO the front was of either the RLM 63 or 02 while the back part of it was of the black. What is more the black disk on the fusealge didn't have the white emblem there. Possible our mate E Escuadrilla Azul could add his three cents.

 

[Dave Goessling]

Thanks for the replies.

I"m well aware of the normal Luftwaffe and Legion Condor colors. My question is about this specific aircraft, which is actually from the Spanish-manned squadrons that took over the HE-51s from the Germans as more modern aircraft were delivered to the Legion Condor, and the HE-51s started showing their obsolescence in the face of the Russian I-16s.

Here is a shot of the English Hasegawa instructions which as you can see specifically calls out this Brown color.

Also a snap of the photo from Air International (bottom picture) of this specific aircraft with the distinctive chain marking within the black disc, as replicated in the kit decals. As you can see, it does seem to be an odd color.

Does anyone have any specific info about this distinctive aircraft? I wonder where Hasegawa got their info back then?

Thanks in advance.

Dave G.

 

[Wurger]

Thanks for the replies.

I"m well aware of the normal Luftwaffe and Legion Condor colors. My question is about this specific aircraft, which is actually from the Spanish-manned squadrons that took over the HE-51s from the Germans as more modern aircraft were delivered to the Legion Condor, and the HE-51s started showing their obsolescence in the face of the Russian I-16s.

Here is a shot of the English Hasegawa instructions which as you can see specifically calls out this Brown color.

View attachment 894248

Also a snap of the photo from Air International (bottom picture) of this specific aircraft with the distinctive chain marking within the black disc, as replicated in the kit decals. As you can see, it does seem to be an odd color.



View attachment 894249

Does anyone have any specific info about this distinctive aircraft? I wonder where Hasegawa got their info back then?

Thanks in advance.

Dave G.

First of all the He-51B in the pic from the Air International is not the He 51 code 2-10 but 2-108. The image from the magazine has been cropped what misled. Below here the full shot. In the pic it can be noticed how chabby uniform the kite was wearing. So the only two images of the 2-10 with the dark appearance you can see in the pics posted above in my post #4. Again I woulld like to make a focus on the differences in the profile from the Hasegawa instruction comparing to these shots. Taking into consideration the kit is from 80' it is not strange that there are mistakes. So the profile is a fiction IMHO. The level of the knowledge about the Spanish Civil War in 80' wasn't that good as it is today. However there is still a lot to find out. For the reason I'm again colling E Escuadrilla Azul who can shed some light on that. Unfortunately looking at the two images of the 2-10 it is quite difficult to state what kind of the camouflage was applied. Secondly judging by the damages of the crashed 2-10 in 1936 the plane wasn't repaired and then handed over under the Spanish menagement and was written off rather.

the pic source: the net.

 

[Dave Goessling]

First of all the He-51B in the pic from the Air International is not the He 51 code 2-10 but 2-108. The image from the magazine has been cropped what misled. Below here the full shot. In the pic it can be noticed how chabby uniform the kite was wearing. So the only two images of the 2-10 with the dark appearance you can see in the pics posted above in my post #4. Again I woulld like to make a focus on the differences in the profile from the Hasegawa instruction comparing to these shots. Taking into consideration the kit is from 80' it is not strange that there are mistakes. So the profile is a fiction IMHO. The level of the knowledge about the Spanish Civil War in 80' wasn't that good as it is today. However there is still a lot to find out. For the reason I'm again colling E Escuadrilla Azul who can shed some light on that. Unfortunately looking at the two images of the 2-10 it is quite difficult to state what kind of the camouflage was applied. Secondly judging by the damages of the crashed 2-10 in 1936 the plane wasn't repaired and then handed over under the Spanish menagement and was written off rather.

View attachment 894267
the pic source: the net.

Wurger,

Thanks for the great reply and especially the full photo of 108.

Perhaps the Hasegawa guys only had the cropped version back in 1980 and that's why they included the chain logo in the black disc? Who knows...

Indeed that aircraft looks very tatty!

In any case it seems unlikely that the brown color they called for could be correct, do you agree?
Were there any other Condor Legion aircraft that used that scheme? They all pretty much followed the normal colors I would think...

I guess I'll wait a little while before painting to see what your expert friend Escuadrilla Azul[ has to say.

Thanks again for the info!

 

[Wurger]

Wurger,

Thanks for the great reply and especially the full photo of 108.

Perhaps the Hasegawa guys only had the cropped version back in 1980 and that's why they included the chain logo in the black disc? Who knows...

Indeed that aircraft looks very tatty!

In any case it seems unlikely that the brown color they called for could be correct, do you agree?
Were there any other Condor Legion aircraft that used that scheme? They all pretty much followed the normal colors I would think...

I guess I'll wait a little while before painting to see what your expert friend Escuadrilla Azul[ has to say.

Thanks again for the info!

Actually the colours for the late He-51 of the Legion Condor are still the can of worms. Having a look at the 2-10 kite again I would say the colour could also be the RLM 62 - Green (FS 34159) overall with the undersides of the RLM 63 - Green Grey. The patches of the RLM 61 - Dark Brown over that are also possible. It is said that the He-51C of the 3.J/88 commander , Oblt. Adolf Galland was painted in the way. Below a shot of the kite and a profile I found via the net. However the plane looks darker than the crashed 2-10 plane. So I still believe the plane was painted with RLM 63 or what is more possible the RLM 02 that was quite dark at that time.

the pic source: the net.

And here is a bonus I found via the net ... the 2-10 profile with the 1-G-2 Grupe emblem. IMHO the profile could have been the base for the Hasegawa and rendition of their own profile. Or it was created just following the Hasegawa B&W instruction. I can see the same mistakes just the different colour overall the He-51. Anyway the RLM 63 or RLM 02 seems to be the main colour.

the profile source: the net.

And here the another He-51 with the emblem of 1-G-2 Grupo ... and of quite dark appearance ...

the pic source: HEINKEL HE-51

 

[Wurger]

And here an addition to my post above. A picture taken in 1939 at the Madrit airfield. The nice set of the He-51 late camouflages. From the top ... the three belonged to the 1-G-2 Grupo ... the first one and the third of the German style camo while the second one ( in the mid ) with the dark one containing mottiling of three colours.. Then the fourth He-51 of the dark style camo ( please notice the 2-xxx number ) but without the Grupo emblem on the black disk. The fifth one of the Italian style camo and number 2-132 ( IMHO ). The Grupo emblem can't be recognized but it seems to be of the 1-G-2 Grupo. And the sixth one of the dark colours at tops. She belonged to the 4-G-2 Grupo and the number is also of the 2-xxx style.

the pic source: the net.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Hi mates. Sorry for being late, a long day at work.

I would not call myself an expert in the Kondor Legion camo, neither in the Kondor itself.

As fubar57 said, He 51 camo changed with the change of role from fighter to ground attack, from overall RLM 63 to a variety of mottled schemes that mixed RLM 61, 62 and 63 upper superficies with solid 65 under, per source "Los Cazadores de la Legión Cóndor".

Some schemes were waving patterns, some like the italian spinach and other were the early Luftwaffe splinter theme.

Regarding 2•108, one source (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 99 - Aces of the Legion Condor) stated that it could resemble RLM 70 Schwargrün but from a locally supplied source. I think that nuance is important, as the aircraft overhauled by the spanish were unlikely to be painted with RLM paints and can make for the different shades of colours, beside heavy wear due to high operations tempo and blazing sun in the summer. As @Wurger said, a can of worms.

In the same source mentioned before, Galland's plane profile colours look much more toned down and a different pattern.

D Dave Goessling other planes of the Kondor Legion used the three coloured scheme, like early Ju-52, Ju-87A, Do-17 and He-111.

About the black disk in the fuselage, it remainded solid through the war, without the white Saint Andrew Cross seen in the upper and lower wing ones, and pilots and units used it for personal and unit logos. As @Wurger said, the flying chain logo is from one of the spanish attack groups and the reason behind it was that the attack formation was dubed "Cadenas" (Chains) as the planes were strafing and bombing in line astern, like they were chained.

In the first source I mentioned, the propellers are said to be painted, usually, as wood in the front and mate black in the back, with the spinner to the like of the pilot or ground crew.

Acurate schemes for the He.51 of the spanish civil war are nearly impossible to depict. Locally (or even italian) sourced paints, heavy wear, bad quality pics.

I post some pics for various He-51s were the three tone can be seen clearly (as in 2•64 of Harro Harder, the one with the swastika in the upper wing and tottenkopf in the front of the engine, 2•100, close up of Galland's 2•78 and 2•86) and the spinach style (2•47).