In the Battle of Britain 1940 Park used his fighters to put up a screen to cover possibilities as an attack developed. The RAF would always have more fuel in their fighters than the LW because the LW had to form up and cross the channel, the LW also had to go back whereas an RAF plane could force land in a field if out of fuel. There were many cases where the RAF were taken by surprise and had to scramble to altitude, in that case you cannot take the additional fuel out and all it does is increase your take off run and decrease your rate of climb.
Spitfire Combat Radius (range) evolution, limitations? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter IdahoRenegade
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If you are asking how many on each side of the Channel the actual numbers changed a lot especially after Barbarossa, but they didnt really matter. The area of France across the Channel from England didnt have a huge number of targets that would damage Germany if destroyed. After a few initial successes bouncing German interceptors the L/W got wise to what the RAF were doing, and only engaged on their terms. Most of the time if they bombed something the Germans told the French to repair it. If you wreck a port it is a French port that discounts it from any invasion plan like Dieppe etc.
radius
To lazy to go looking for the post by PAT303.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
A lot of times operational radius was less than even the hasty numbers I gave which worked out to over 250 miles of radius.
I didn't figure in dogleg courses or flak detours or try to estimate prevailing winds out of the west. Or try to figure in forming up at the end of combat. It also assumes that the planes will be exactly on course and the proper distance from home at the end of 15 minutes of combat flying.
I didn't figure in dogleg courses or flak detours or try to estimate prevailing winds out of the west. Or try to figure in forming up at the end of combat. It also assumes that the planes will be exactly on course and the proper distance from home at the end of 15 minutes of combat flying.
There are many ways to calculate things. I was surprised to read that the Mustang Mk I used on tactical recon didnt have a radius as as such, they did their missions in a different way and generally it boiled down to 90 miles in from the enemy coast. The actual plane could of course go much further but not the way those missions were conducted.A lot of times operational radius was less than even the hasty numbers I gave which worked out to over 250 miles of radius.
I didn't figure in dogleg courses or flak detours or try to estimate prevailing winds out of the west. Or try to figure in forming up at the end of combat. It also assumes that the planes will be exactly on course and the proper distance from home at the end of 15 minutes of combat flying.
Wait, those numbers don't look right. There's a site called WWII Aircraft Performance which indicates for the Supermarine Spitfires full-throttle heights were a bit higher...
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,776
- Dec 6, 2006
Actually the XIV had a bigger fin and rudder than the VIIII did not know that the elevator was upgraded that late.
But it was not actually a required modification to make the IX, as had been claimed. It was more of a general improvement.
The fin is the same in the I, II, V, IX, VIII and XIV. It was the rudder that was changed. Obviously for directional stability.
Late model Spitfires (20-series) got the fin and rudder from the Spiteful, which was larger and had a different shape.
Of this I was aware.
Was pointing out that the difference between the IX and the XVI was that the former had a Rolls-Royce engine and the latter had a Packard engine. Some XVIs had the cut down rear fuselage, just as some XIVs had the cut down rear fuselage.
Here is a XVI without the bubble canopy
VH-XVI | Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XVI | Private | Thimo van Dijk | JetPhotos
VH-XVI. Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XVI. JetPhotos.com is the biggest database of aviation photographs with over 6 million screened photos online!www.jetphotos.com
Supermarine Spitfire – IPMS Salisbury
ipmssalisbury.co.uk
Makes sense since it had a Griffon powering itActually the XIV had a bigger fin and rudder than the VIII
Supermarine Spitfire – IPMS Salisbury
I sometimes review old posts I was in: On the 20 imperial gallon tank (and this is strictly rumor at this point, in otherwords, it would have to be backed by additional concrete data), I have heard claims that the underseat tank ended up taking up space that included radio-equipment, IFF equipment and cockpit armor.
The 20G tank was a bespoke modification by Sydney Cotton and wasn't officially accepted so no actual photo's of it exist, he fitted them to the two PR Spitfires he had built
drgondog
Major
Agree.A lot of times operational radius was less than even the hasty numbers I gave which worked out to over 250 miles of radius.
I didn't figure in dogleg courses or flak detours or try to estimate prevailing winds out of the west. Or try to figure in forming up at the end of combat. It also assumes that the planes will be exactly on course and the proper distance from home at the end of 15 minutes of combat flying.
For the AAF, the Combat Radius was developed based on two profiles. First was based on Escort, which assumed escort profile (i.e. Ess over/around bomber formation) 150mi inbound to target while "tethered", drop tanks,, fight and cruise straight back in straight line with a 30 minute reserve. The second was Offensive Fighter which was cruise to the target, fight, and cruise back in a straight line.
The manufacturer's engineers prepared all the tables for the Pilot's Operating Manuals, and all the Combat Radius data, using the same set of assumptions, then delivered them to AAF Materiel Command where they were collected and published as part of the Fighter Aircraft Range Extension Program. It was only in the mid 1944 timeframe that extensive flight testing was accomplished to compare (and adjust) POM's.
Strictly a guide and yes, often optimistic when compared to real operations, including group warm up, take off and climb realities, combined with weather variables, and actual escort profiles flown. Both 8th AF Bomb Wings and Fighter Wings understood the variables and incorporated them at the Group Operations level to plan the missions from Rendezvous Time back to Start Engine time to achieve the escort profiles. The Offensive Fighter Missions actually were much closer to the Table data, because the outbound and return courses were very much a 'straight line'.
I devote a lot of ink in the new book extracting actual combat radii from home base to the area where victory credits were achieved to present some sense of 'actual' vs 'table data'.
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
re
Do you know when this was supposed to have occurred, and what Mark of PR Spit?
Hey PAT303,
Do you know when this was supposed to have occurred, and what Mark of PR Spit?
MIflyer
Captain
I believe I read that a Spit IX with two 500 lb bombs had a combat radius of about 90 miles. So they operated from airfields in France as soon as possible after 6 Jun 1944.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
What was the range with beer kegs (full)?
MIflyer
Captain
Did not matter. They did not have to make a round trip, which is more or less mandatory for bombing missions.
Same applied to F4U hauling Cokes in the Pacific.
wuzak
Captain
Were there many examples of escort fighters running out of fuel on the way home?
drgondog
Major
Yes, enough. The first captured P-47 was a result of over long escort performed to Duren by the 355th FG. Bill Roach and Walter Kossack landed near Calais low on fuel November 7, 1943. Chester Watson bailed out over the Channel MIA/KIA. A straight line distance to Duren from Steeple Morden is ~260mi, the table CR for escort with 75gal tank is 260mi. The 355th engaged in combat but none of the three above were invloved.
Bill Roach's YF-U Beetle was intact and immediately flown to Rechlin.
Most low fuel losses resulted in bail outs over Norh Sea/Channel and there were numerous such losses, particularly in late Fall/Winter/early Spring.
That's actually good to know!
Regardless, how much armor was typically carried under the pilot and did the Spitfires have IFF and radio equipment under the cockpit? After all, the information I found is unverified.
In his book it says they are Mk1's, I'm not home so can't directly quote it but he got a second one after the first was successfully flown. They weren't approved models just his bespoke conversions.
There wasn't a need for the 20G tank because the MkV had a 29G and the MkIX a 33G behind the seat.
