GregP
Major
Source?
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The stressed skin was better vs. machine gun bullets as well -- deflecting a proportion at shallow angles.
Firing trials vs. Hurricane and Spitfire fuselage
Direct astern, 7.92mm AP
Spitfire
49% of bullets were deflected
15% of bullets (or bullet fragments) reached the armour
7% of bullets (or bullet fragments) penetrated
Hurricane
37% of bullets were deflected
61% of the bullets (or bullet fragments) reached the armour
19% of bullets (or bullet fragments) penetrated
The Spitfire's skin was noted as the reason for the higher percentage of deflections.
And when performing fabric repairs, even simple ones, there are environmental (temperature and humidity) considerations when applying dope.
And those "deflected" bullets - did they still damage structure?The stressed skin was better vs. machine gun bullets as well -- deflecting a proportion at shallow angles.
Firing trials vs. Hurricane and Spitfire fuselage
Direct astern, 7.92mm AP
Spitfire
49% of bullets were deflected
15% of bullets (or bullet fragments) reached the armour
7% of bullets (or bullet fragments) penetrated
Hurricane
37% of bullets were deflected
61% of the bullets (or bullet fragments) reached the armour
19% of bullets (or bullet fragments) penetrated
The Spitfire's skin was noted as the reason for the higher percentage of deflections.
Source?
Given those ammo boxes can be filled on the ground and are interchangeable between aircraft I would say that is a staged photo to illustrate how much ammo it will hold - especially seeing the guy on the wing is "loading" 50 cal ammo into 30 cal guns.Former Fitter with No 145 Sdrn, Eric Marsden: "If we'd had nothing but Spits, we'd have lost the fight in 1940. The turn around time on the ground was so poor that Jerry couldn't have failed to get us. The Spit I and II took 26 minutes to turn around, compared to the Hurri's 9 minutes ... that is a complete service -- re-arm, refuel, and replenish oxygen -- from down to up again."
I'll bet a P-39 could have done it in five minutes!
View attachment 680025
Looking at the Spit V maintenance manual and the Hurri II maintenance manuals. The Spit V uses a pneumatic system for the brakes, flaps, guns, cine camera, and retractable landing lamps. The Hurri II uses the pneumatics for just the brakes and the guns.
So the Spit probably required more charging of the pneumatic system bottles than did the Hurri.
I suppose the use of pneumatics in the Spit and Hurri as well as the Mossie reflected a British preference for that over electrics, as compared to US aircraft. Why they did that I do not know. Perhaps cost was a factor. While I worked on USAF aircraft pneumatics, the only aircraft I can think of that used pneumatics for actuators was the F-106, which used high pressure bottles to supply the flight control Feel Force system and the weapons launching system. Pneumatics can be made capable of very fast operation compared to electric or hydraulics., which was a big advantage for launching missiles. Another engineer told me he was supposed to work on the F-106 missile launch actuator but was scared to do so. I asked why and after looking at the manual I had to agree with him. The actuator used what I think was the unique approach of applying the same pressure to both sides of the piston, using the difference in area to determine which way the piston moved. This had the advantage of sending part of the air back into the pressure bottle rather than dumping it overboard, but if you were testing the actuator on the ground and figured, "Shucks, I don't need to hook up the line to the port that sends it back up since I can do that by hand." then that long length of polished solid steel was going to come out of that cylinder and just keep right on going, through anything in its way.
The Hurricanes big advantage was battle damage that required tinwork on a Spitfire was dope and a cloth patch on a Hurricane.
The Spitfire was a magnificent aerodynamic achievement, but not a thought had been given to manufacture and serviceability.
They could've made them smaller but there was a war on, mister!Amen to that. Worst aircraft I have worked on for structural restoration. Lots of small fiddly parts that are in hard to access locations. Access panels were the absolute smallest they could get away with so servicing was also difficult.
One item I recently read was that an RAF pilot said one thing he really liked about the Hurricane was that it had dual controls. The elevators operate separately, so even if one got shot out you would have the other one. I'll admit that idea never occurred to me.
Getting a damaged steel tube out of the Hurricane might take a few hours to take the skin off, get the wooden bits out of the way, change the steel tube (bolts) and then replace the formers and start applying the fabric.
Even a grazing hit by a few machine gun bullets might call for the replacement of several of the wood formers and or fairing strips.
Not claiming the Spitfire was bullet proof, just that the claims of ease of repair might be pushing things once we get past the hand full of bullet holes in the skin stories.
You can fly the Hurricane with the bulges in the skin from broken wooden formers since the strength is in the steel tubes. But would you want to considering the loss in performance (extra drag) or chances the fabric would rip with more flutter of the fabric.
Maybe the fabric covering acted like a bullet magnet and diverted bullets away from the metal parts?
From the Hurricane II Maintenance Manual, Section 7, Chapter 1, Paragraph 10:Crap with a capital K
I think it was Bill Gunston that said you could just about build a Hurricane in your garage, using a hacksaw, vice, files, and other hand tools. But as you describe that does not mean they were easy to duplicate, as these illustrations from the Hurricane Maintenance Manual reveal.
That will depend on where they hit. On a skin next to a frame, almost certainly as the skin will deform more than in the centre of a structural panel where the skin can deflect (oil can). In most, if not all, cases the structural damage will be minor.And those "deflected" bullets - did they still damage structure?