Spitfire IX v. FW 190A

[Colin1]

...its ability to retain energy using them change direction quickly and easily and stay at the high speeds ...

That's contrary to how I understand it

 

[mike526mp]

here is a fw-190 and a mustang video from reno


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb1DxAjqlqQ

look, the webmaster is posting comments about himself below!!!!!!!!!!

we all knew that mr webmaster, that you are legally retarded and you see double, you didn't have to remind us by posting it below. just to remind you, the fw-190 was slow and unreliable,you need to grow up

why did the FW-190 do so bad at reno? watch the video, the P-51D went by it like it was standing still, came in last place of all the airplanes, even a T-28 and Wildcat were faster, whipped it's butt.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb1DxAjqlqQ


Place Race
Number Pilot Home Town Aircraft Type Aircraft Name Time Speed
1 7 Hinton, Steven Bakersfield, CA P-51D Mustang Strega 01:02.694 484.255
2 5 Whiteside, Will Windsor, CA P-51D Mustang Voodoo 01:03.358 479.180
3 77 Penney, John Evergreen, CO Grumman F8F Bearcat Rare Bear 01:08.113 445.728
4 8 Jackson, Matt Northridge, CA Hawker Sea Fury Dreadnought 01:08.215 445.062
5 11 Hisey, Brent Oklahoma City, OK P-51D Mustang Miss America 01:13.458 413.296
6 20 Martin, Dan San Jose, CA P-51D Mustang Ridge Runner III 01:13.519 412.953
7 33 Whiteside, Will Windsor, CA Yak 3U/R-200 Steadfast 01:19.194 383.361
8 55 Dawson, Stewart Celina, TX F7F-3 Tigercat Here Kitty Kitty 01:20.914 375.212
9 22 Eberhardt, Bill Gig Harbor, WA P-51D Mustang Merlin's Magic 01:22.628 367.428
10 1 Lewis, Rod San Antonio, TX F7F-3 Tigercat Big Bossman 01:23.182 364.981
11 44 Seghetti, Brant Vacaville, CA P-51D Mustang Sparky 01:25.566 354.812
12 15 Watt, Mark Ontario, Canada P-51 Mustang Geraldine 01:26.406 351.363
13 81 Patterson, Robert Corona, CA TF-51D Lady Jo 01:26.860 349.527
14 31 Gordon, Rob Healdsburg, CA P-51D Mustang Speedball Alice 01:28.272 343.936
15 16 Greenhill, Chuck Lake Zurich, IL P-51 Mustang Lou IV 01:29.636 338.702
16 4 Morss, Dave Redwood City, CA P-51A Mustang Polar Bear 01:33.208 325.722
17 17 Paul, John-Curtiss Boise,ID P-40N Parrothead 01:33.734 323.894
18 0 McKinstry, Jim Mead, CO Yak 3 Shiska Su'Ka 01:34.511 321.231
19 24 Matthews, Doug Wellington, FL F4U-4 Corsair Corsair 01:36.934 313.202
20 2 Sanders, Brian El Dorado Hills, CA Grumman FM-2 Wildcat Air Biscuit 01:37.119 312.605
21 66 Wallace, Bruce San Carlos, CA T-28B The Bear 01:38.083 309.533
22 14 Malony, John Wildomar, CA FW-190 What Da Fockewulf 01:40.460 302.209
No Time 30 Martin, Dan San Jose, CA P-51D Mustang Grim Reaper
No Time 177 Leeward, Jimmy Ocala, FL P-51D Mustang Galloping Ghost


you need to grow up, and quit the whinning. please don't remind us again that that you are legally retarded and you see double, by posting it below.

by the way people, mr webmaster has numerous names, if you don't agree with him (don't say the german airplanes were the best), he posts aurguements as anonymous and other false names, maybe he thinks he is still in nazi germany? one more time mr webmaster, post your problem below.......

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Goodbye...

You spam our forum with retarded posts. You are the weakest link.

 

[Njaco]

I like how one of his primary sources was "12 O'clock High" with Gregpry Peck!

 

[Kurfürst]

Um on the fuel thing though, 190s and 109s were all using the same low grade fuel. The Germans did not have anything else late in the war.

Hmm, thats not completely true. The BMW 801Ds of the 190A, F, and G series used C-3, ie. 150 grade fuel and couldnt use anything else. Mid-war 109s until 1944 used low octane B-4, though of course C-3 could be used instead, there would be no advantage from it, except for logistics in certain areas (ie. 109s and 190s being on the same airfield).

Late war 109s used either 87 octane B-4 or 150 grade C-3, but altough the latter was preferred, it wasn't absolutely necessary except if you wanted to run the G-10/K-4 at high boost and 2000 PS at 1.98ata boost.

The FW 190Ds would use low grade B-4, although there are some indication that some units used C-3 instead, I don't think there was any advantage from it. Generally they seem to have used B-4, so the situation kinda reversed late in the war, with 190s increasingly relying on low octane and 109s increasingly on high octane.

The Jumo 213 was appearantly existed in two versions, one with higher compression ratio for higher fuel, and slightly greater output, but I am not exactly sure if it was in production.

 

[Milosh]

That is not exactly true either Kurfurst. It was only late war that C3 was pushing a PN of 150. Most of the time is was a PN of 125-130.

 

[Kurfürst]

1943 doesn't sound late war to me.

 

[RCAFson]

The major problem with that report is that it doesn't use the 5min combat rating for the Spitfire, because the Spitfire IX is just about supreme in climb rate when using the combat rating of the Merlin engine:

OTOH, the Fw-190 doesn't gain much performance when using the combat rating during climb.

 

[Ernst]

Any of yours have a copy of this report on Spitfire IX and Focke Wulf? I would like the sources.

 

[bada]

The major problem with that report is that it doesn't use the 5min combat rating for the Spitfire, because the Spitfire IX is just about supreme in climb rate when using the combat rating of the Merlin engine:
.

Hum, not really true here i think,
if spit climbs in combat rating, it's radiators can't follow with the cooling because of the low speed,full drag and not enough air through the radiators. After 5min you'll get a very supreme pilot hanging on it's "chute with the aiframe going doing with an overcooked gripped engine.

the climb test at full power were done with manually blocked (fixed)radiators flaps in maximal technicly permissible open position, an operationnal airframe has it's radiators fully automatic and not even sure the flaps can open at the same angle as they were when manually fixed.

EDIT: forget the above, i miss-matched with something else.

OTOH, the Fw-190 doesn't gain much performance when using the combat rating during climb.

Do you have data on this????? i'd like to see an OFFICIAL focke wulf chart with climb results in combat boost.

Anyway, when talking about the spit9, we must consider from what period of time: mid42->mid43 (M61) ; mid43->end( M66) or the mid43->end (M63 tropical).
so we can consider what versions of 190 to compare A2/3/4 vs M61 .
the rest of 190 VS M66.

And yes, got the scans of original repport on faber's 190 and it's tests in the RAF. you'll got to wait till the weekend to receive it (send me your email adress via mp)

 

[Glider]

This should have most of what you want
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw190-papers-22545.html

 

[NZTyphoon]

Hum, not really true here i think,
if spit climbs in combat rating, it's radiators can't follow with the cooling because of the low speed,full drag and not enough air through the radiators. After 5min you'll get a very supreme pilot hanging on it's "chute with the aiframe going doing with an overcooked gripped engine.

the climb test at full power were done with manually blocked (fixed)radiators flaps in maximal technicly permissible open position, an operationnal airframe has it's radiators fully automatic and not even sure the flaps can open at the same angle as they were when manually fixed.

Have you any any evidence for this?- the radiator flaps on the IXs were fully automatic and there was no way the aircraft could be tested in the condition you describe unless the pressure capsule which operated the system had been disconnected or disabled. Had the engine overheated after five minutes, as described, any climb tests would have been aborted after five minutes, so why was it possible to measure climb performance ( up to 40,000 feet in the case of BS543 with Merlin 66 in March 1943, up to 30,000 feet in the case of JL165 Merlin 66 on 150 octane fuel + 25 lbs boost in early 1944) without the engine overheating?

BTW, while people are correct in stating that the original Fw 190 A-3 compared with a Spitfire IX was Faber's machine with a derated BMW 801, it is equally fair to mention that the Spitfire IX that it was tested against might have been AB505 or BS273 or BS274 (can you confirm this Glider?), which were Spitfire VCs converted by Rolls-Royce at Hucknall - as such they had Spitfire VC wings with the large double blister and the converted VC engine cowling panels which knocked off a few mph.

 

[bada]

that's why i've edited the post and addded:

"EDIT: forget the above, i miss-matched with something else."

so forget about it

EDIt: the airframe used for test with fw-190 MP499 was the BR980 spit.

BR980:FF 27-6-42 45MU 28-6-42 AFDU 13-7-42 64S 'SH-E' 4-8-42 RAE comparison trials with Fw190 MP499 Shot down by Fw190s nr St.Valery 5-9-42 FH53.20

AB505:FF 25-1-42 CRD R-R 28-1-42 from VA White Waltham M46 install AFDU 26-4-42 R-R 7-5-42 Cv HFIX M61 install AFDU Hornchurch for trials 64S 4-6-42 Sqdn trials R-R 11-7-42 M77 with Rotol Mk XHCR six blade contra prop install VA 17-7-43 mods to fin and rud lateral instability with normal FIX empennage prompted dev of increased area unit retractable tailwheel AAEE 10-9-43 evaluation and comparison trials with Spitfire FVIII Stroboscopic effect of contra/prop produced a white circle of approx 3degree Pilots soon became accustomed to this AST 26-11-43 Cv standard FIX 611S 13-7-44 VA 15-9-44 mods 312S 8-10-44 struck rear of MH357 at Bradwell Bay CE 8-12-44

BS273:FF 14-8-42 R-RH Cv IX M61 64S 16-8-42 AFDU Duxford 16-8-42 Cranfield 3501SU 27-8-42 Special Flt Northolt 5-9-42 Wood prop armour removed armament reduced to 2x20mm can lightweight pt finish operated under code Windgap reached height of 45000ft 124S 25-1-43 3501SU 27-3-43 453S 1-5-43 mods AST 9-5-43 453S 15-5-43 ? AST riw 24-6-43 453S 26-6-43 Shot down by fighters nr Cayeux 4-7-43 F/Sgt C Woodall killed

BS274:FF 12-8-42 R-RH Cv IX M61 incorrectly painted 'BF274' Canadian Pacific retained until scrap. Off CRD contract not to be included in count AAEE 13-8-42 climb and level speed perf and positional error. 6-10-42 range det with 170gal overload tank. Guns removed for cool trials fuel cooler in port wing root 13-10-42 fuel cons trials Boulton Paul 31-10-42 CRD Staverton 11-1-43 AST 18-1-44 major repair mods at Flight Refuelling for fighter towing trials 7-44 58OTU 16-5-45 sold Vickers 11-1-47 Cv Type 509 two-seat trainer RNethAF as H-98 22-3-48

 

[Milosh]

1943 doesn't sound late war to me.

Do you have proof than 150PN C3 was delivered to operational units in 1943?

 

[Glider]

BTW, while people are correct in stating that the original Fw 190 A-3 compared with a Spitfire IX was Faber's machine with a derated BMW 801, it is equally fair to mention that the Spitfire IX that it was tested against might have been AB505 or BS273 or BS274 (can you confirm this Glider?), which were Spitfire VCs converted by Rolls-Royce at Hucknall - as such they had Spitfire VC wings with the large double blister and the converted VC engine cowling panels which knocked off a few mph.

I am afraid that I cannot comment on the actual allied aircraft used for the test. I can confirm that the 190 was MP499 which did have a de rated engine but was uprated for the test so its a fair comparison.

What I wonder about is why it was de rated in the first place. Clearly the Luftwaffe had some fairly major problems as no one send its pilots into combat with de rated engines without a good reason.

 

[RCAFson]

Do you have data on this????? i'd like to see an OFFICIAL focke wulf chart with climb results in combat boost.

Anyway, when talking about the spit9, we must consider from what period of time: mid42->mid43 (M61) ; mid43->end( M66) or the mid43->end (M63 tropical).
so we can consider what versions of 190 to compare A2/3/4 vs M61 .
the rest of 190 VS M66.

And yes, got the scans of original repport on faber's 190 and it's tests in the RAF. you'll got to wait till the weekend to receive it (send me your email adress via mp)

The data on the Fw-190 came from here:
FW 190 A-5 Performance
and here is combat climb data:

German climb figures for the Fw 190 A-5 as shown in the table and charts above are generally given assuming climb and combat power (Steig- und Kampfleistung) engine settings of 1.32 ata and 2400 RPM. The Steigflug section of the Fw 190 A-1 - A-8 Bedienvorschrift-Fl from February 1944, however, states that it was possible to climb with emergency power for 3 minutes with all Fw 190 A production series. Climb rate for the Fw 190 A-5 utilizing emergency power was approximately 1,5 - 2 m/s faster than the A-8 climb with emergency power, therefore, best climb rate at sea level would have been on the order of 3,662 - 3,760 ft/min (18.7 to 19.2 m/s) for the Fw 190 A-5

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a8-12jan44.jpg

 

[NZTyphoon]

that's why i've edited the post and addded:

"EDIT: forget the above, i miss-matched with something else."

so forget about it

EDIt: the airframe used for test with fw-190 MP499 was the BR980 spit.

BR980:FF 27-6-42 45MU 28-6-42 AFDU 13-7-42 64S 'SH-E' 4-8-42 RAE comparison trials with Fw190 MP499 Shot down by Fw190s nr St.Valery 5-9-42 FH53.20

Thanks for that; t'was one of the first operational Mk IXs with the 64 Sqn, first unit to be issued with them - didn't last long. BTW SOME Spitfire IXs - about 400- were fitted with Merlin 70s as HF Mk IX.

 

[Hop]

if spit climbs in combat rating, it's radiators can't follow with the cooling because of the low speed,full drag and not enough air through the radiators. After 5min you'll get a very supreme pilot hanging on it's "chute with the aiframe going doing with an overcooked gripped engine.

the climb test at full power were done with manually blocked (fixed)radiators flaps in maximal technicly permissible open position, an operationnal airframe has it's radiators fully automatic and not even sure the flaps can open at the same angle as they were when manually fixed.

The Spitfire had 2 radiator positions, open and closed. The A&AEE usually tested with the radiators forced open for a worst case scenario. They did that by bypassing the thermostat or fitting a switch in the cockpit, so the radiators had the normal range of travel.

As to cooling for a normal Spitfire during a combat climb, the A&AEE tested a Spitfire running at 25 lbs boost.

With the radiator flaps SHUT, the coolant temperature went from 78c at the start of the climb at 2,000 ft to 106c at 30,000 ft. The automatic radiator flaps on a Spitfire opened and closed at 115c, so a normal Spitfire would have made the entire climb with the radiators closed. The coolant temperature limit on the Spitfire was 135c.

That test was carried out in Britain in the winter, with air temperature at sea level of around 6c. However, the A&AEE also worked out the temperatures in temperate and tropical summer conditions. The engine wouldn't overheat in a full throttle, 25 lbs boost climb from 2,000 - 32,000ft under temperate summer conditions with the radiator flaps shut. Such a climb would result in overheating under tropical summer conditions, but not with radiator flaps open.

So no, a Spitfire IX pilot wouldn't have an overcooked engine at the end of a climb. Even when he was using 25 lbs boost. In fact, under most European conditions his radiator flaps wouldn't even open.

Anyway, when talking about the spit9, we must consider from what period of time: mid42->mid43 (M61) ; mid43->end( M66) or the mid43->end (M63 tropical).

You left out the normal Merlin 63. If you look at the record of first flight dates of Spitfire IXs, Merlin 61 powered aircraft stopped coming off the line in mid February 1943 and Merlin 63 Spitfire IXs started in mid January.

 

[Kurfürst]

Do you have proof than 150PN C3 was delivered to operational units in 1943?

See first paragraph of page 120:

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Fuel/mof...ng_Products_via_Fischer-Tropsch_Archieves.pdf

 

[Milosh]

(The C-3 grade corresponded roughly to the U. S. grade 130 gasoline, although the octane number of C-3 was specified to be only 95 and its lean mixture performance was somewhat poorer.)

Technical Report 145-45 - The Manufacture of Aviation Gasoline in Germany

And,
Technical Report 145-45 - The Manufacture of Aviation Gasoline in Germany

See about 1/2 way down.

If 150PN C3 was available in 1943 then why did the testing of 1945 C3 fuel not get a 150PN?