Spitfire Mk.XIV vs P-51D Mustang

[silence]

The carbuncles of the Spit are are ok for me. It looks stronger that way.
I prefer the weapon configuration of the D-9 with the MG bulges making it more meanlooking than the later Fw/Ta fighters.
About the 109 the K-version with its bigger yet streamlined front fuselage (without the ugly blisters of the G-versions) and the thickened wing part to house the bigger wheels
one gets the impression of hardly tamed power underneath.
It had all the bulges in the right place while still looking sleek.
This plane meant business. This also applies to the 190s/152s and the later Spits.
The Italian fighters never struck to me as more or less attractive than the ones of other countries yet some people say that they owe their "special"(?) beauty to their famous Italian design heritage.

Sounds like you're a warhorse kind of guy. Me, I like racing horses.

 

[spicmart]

Sounds like you're a warhorse kind of guy. Me, I like racing horses.

Nope, I actually prefer race horses, too, thoroughbreds, pure fighters.

 

[spicmart]

Anyone knows how much the roll rate of the Spitfire improved with the advent of the Mk 21+? It could house four 20 mm Hispanos.
Where there other notable changes? I've read that it didn't fly "like a Spitfire".

 

[Juha]

Anyone knows how much the roll rate of the Spitfire improved with the advent of the Mk 21+? .

The graph of Mk 21 moved right, so it rolled better at speeds above 250mph EAS, and worse below that speed than e.g. Mk V. Also its max rate of roll was higher, it peaked a bit under 120deg/sec at 300mph EAS.

It could house four 20 mm Hispanos.

So could already Spit Mk VC, all C wing Spits had the option of 4 20mm but it was used only a short while in some Mk VCs, the armament really was too heavy for Merlin Spits.

Juha

 

[spicmart]

So did it roll as fast as or faster than the Doras and Tanks in the higher speed envelopes?

 

[nuuumannn]

Oh go on then as we are doing Spitfire p0rn

There's something about the PR Spits; unarmed, unafraid. Those guys who flew them were true legends. I also like their colour schemes.

 

[Juha]

So did it roll as fast as or faster than the Doras and Tanks in the higher speed envelopes?

I don't have those roll rates but Mk 21 still seems to roll a bit worse than than 190A at 300+mph EAS if we look the 190 info in NACA 868, EAS is not same than IAS but not far off so only it seems. I can't convert EAS to IAS but the difference between IAS and EAS at 10,000ft. should be very small. And definitely worse under 290mph EAS.

Juha

 

[grampi]

A more fair comparison would be to compare the Mk XIV to the P-51H model, which was designed to be more of a dogfighter...I would think the H would hang with, or better the Spit in almost every category...

 

[CORSNING]

I apologize to everyone ahead of time. I am pretty sure I have read
this entire thread a few years ago. Well, I have done a lot of researching
since. As soon as I get a chance (tomorrow) I will straighten out Sorens
original performance and statistics figures.
I know, I'm a little booger, Jeff

 

[buffnut453]

A more fair comparison would be to compare the Mk XIV to the P-51H model, which was designed to be more of a dogfighter...I would think the H would hang with, or better the Spit in almost every category...

Maybe...but the P-51H didn't fly until 3 Feb 45 whereas the Spit XIV entered squadron service in Dec 43. The Spit 21 was in squadron use in Jan 45 so even that's not a true counterpart of the P-51H. The Mk22 was probably the closest from a timescale perspective...so how about that comparison?

 

[grampi]

Maybe...but the P-51H didn't fly until 3 Feb 45 whereas the Spit XIV entered squadron service in Dec 43. The Spit 21 was in squadron use in Jan 45 so even that's not a true counterpart of the P-51H. The Mk22 was probably the closest from a timescale perspective...so how about that comparison?

There probably isn't a fair comparison if you're going by being in service at the same time, not because the Mustang lacked good design, but rather because it was designed for a different purpose. None of the Mustangs prior to the H model compare well to the Spits simply because the Spits were designed purely as a dogfighter, and the Mustang was not. That's why I said to compare the H to the XIV because it was designed to be a better dogfighter...and it was...or I guess I should say it would've been had it seen service...

 

[buffnut453]

There probably isn't a fair comparison if you're going by being in service at the same time, not because the Mustang lacked good design, but rather because it was designed for a different purpose. None of the Mustangs prior to the H model compare well to the Spits simply because the Spits were designed purely as a dogfighter, and the Mustang was not. That's why I said to compare the H to the XIV because it was designed to be a better dogfighter...and it was...

But comparing aircraft from different time periods isn't particularly valid. You may as well compare a Spitfire MkI to a Fw190, which is hardly a fair fight. The pace of change in aeronautical development makes it really hard to do valid comparisons other than by evaluating close contemporaries, which the Spit XIV and P-51H were far from being.

 

[pbehn]

Was the Spitfire designed as a dogfighter? I believe it was designed as an interceptor. To give it speed and climb a thin elliptical wing was chosen. To compensate for a thin wings stall problems it was given a small wash out. Turn and climb are similar properties which resulted in the Spitfire being good in a dogfight but that wasnt its design brief, it never had a great roll rate.

 

[bobbysocks]

ok, I told this story before...maybe in this thread...but there is alcohol involved and I am not in the position to research. my father was coming back from a mission over Europe....he was in a 51 ( and I don't know if he was already an ace when this happened) . he didn't fly too many B/Cs so....I will assume he was in his D. as approached the English coast he saw a lone spitfire on patrol. he's 19, thinks he has the world by the ass because he is in the "best plane ever made". he thinks he is going to show this brit who's the boss. so he is feeling his oats and decides to jumps the spit. long story short...he gets his ass kicked! besides the initial jump that was the only thing he had going for him. in all his fights he never had an EA on his tail but this guy was able to get there no problem despite anything he could do...any trick he could pull out of his @$$. he came away from that very humble and respectful. the real "take away..to coin the phrase" from this is...compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. the 51 was a 1 of a kind fruit. none of the other allied or enemy planes were designed as long range escorts. the 47 coulda, woulda, shoulda, but was late to the dance. to get a certain performance you will have to sacrifice other performance issues. the spit vs a 109 or 190 is a better match because they were both in the same performance envelope....fuel on board, weight of armament, range, alt, etc.. absolutely NONETHING the germans had was in the same perimeter as the mustang. so to draw comparisons is fruitless. I will, however, throw in that when most fights over germany initiated....the 51s dumped their drop tanks and had all of their inboard wing fuel and 25-35ish gallons in the fuse tank...and they STILL were par with whatever variants of 109s/190s they encountered. for what the spitfire was designed for....it and the hurricane saved the uk from the BoB and the blitz. no small accomplishment...f'n indeed. but for the battle of mainland Europe the pony won that equestrienne event....

 

[rochie]

Great post Dale

 

[CORSNING]

Was the Spitfire designed as a dogfighter? I believe it was designed as an interceptor. To give it speed and climb a thin elliptical wing was chosen. To compensate for a thin wings stall problems it was given a small wash out. Turn and climb are similar properties which resulted in the Spitfire being good in a dogfight but that wasnt its design brief, it never had a great roll rate.

Where did you ever get that idea??? The 'A'-'C' wing Spitfire was able to out roll an early Tomohawk up
to speeds past 240 mph. It could out roll the P-51B up to 260 mph. It could even out roll the P-63 up to
220 mph. And just for the Proverbial record, the clipped wing versions could out roll the fabled Fw-190A
up past 215 mph and most everything else up to around 295 mph.
Once again, whatever made you think the Spitfire couldn't roll well?
Jeff???

 

[drgondog]

To the above questions re: P-51H vs Spit XIV (or 21). The H was about on par with a B/D but definitely not improved. The H had larger ailerons but only 10 degrees deflection vs +/-15 for earlier P-51.

At full WEP it would easily climb with anything discussed here and out run all at FTH. I don't know of any US fighter pilot (in any operational US fighter) with credibility that claimed he could whip an equivalent pilot in a Spit IX or XIV. I recall a formidable P-47 ace that did so claim, but doubt very seriously that he knew what he was talking about - unless he was talking about 30,000 feet plus (which he wasn't).

 

[CORSNING]

Very nice post there Mr. bobbysocks.
You know last night before I went to bed I had no idea exactly what to comment to post
to put these two aircraft into perspective. Dale pretty much summed up every idea
I didn't put together, nicely done sir. The absolute truth is no Mustang was the dogfighter
that any Spitfire was. If cards were played right, it did not have to be. Dive and Zoom
climb were the Mustangs forte in this area. As a zone defense interceptor the Spitfire
was without peer in the ETO (IMO). Moral: the Mustang was no Spitfire.

Now with that said, there is the other side of the coin; 500 miles from home the only
fighter the bomber pilots want to see is the Mustang. Moral: the Spitfire was no
Mustang.

 

[CORSNING]

Bill,
All I know is what I read. I have never flown a Mustang and I have never
flown a Spitfire. I have read that the P-51H was much lighter on its toes
than the 'D' model, being able to turn inside it and outroll it easily. Do you
have any information in this area sir?
Jeff

 

[pbehn]

Where did you ever get that idea??? The 'A'-'C' wing Spitfire was able to out roll an early Tomohawk up
to speeds past 240 mph. It could out roll the P-51B up to 260 mph. It could even out roll the P-63 up to
220 mph. And just for the Proverbial record, the clipped wing versions could out roll the fabled Fw-190A
up past 215 mph and most everything else up to around 295 mph.
Once again, whatever made you think the Spitfire couldn't roll well?
Jeff???

Jeff perhaps because it needed clipped wings to compete with Fw 190. Your figures are all "up to", presumably the Spitfire suffered above those speeds. Also the last version in the Supermarine line the Spiteful was specifically designed to have a much better roll rate.

I didnt say it couldnt roll well I said it wasnt great, as in better than its opponent.