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The basic position taken was that the Ju87 was very resistant to damage,and the conversely the allied Fighter bombers were hopelessly innaccurate and very vulnerable to German ground fire.
And exactly what are you saying regarding Grohler. I can only repeat, the link you gave, was to an unreferenced site that mentions this very source, and then proceeds to provide an unreferenced critique of it. So, are you agreeing with Butler, or are you agreeing with Grohler. Its impossible to agree with both, because they are disagreeing with each other
As usual your references are dodgy and misleading, The source you give is stated in the article by this les Butler and is in fact the object of his critique. It is not the source of the link you have provided at all. But I guess you already know that.
The link itself is dubious and rubbish basically. Apart from the target of its cabal, it is an unreferenced article, author unkown, and no way to check the veracity of its claims. Cannot find any references to this les Butler.
So my summation. Unsubstantiated rubbish basically because it has shoddy and questionable credentials. if this is the sort of material that you have based your opinions, then no wonder you are out there.
A slight misunderstanding here: Les Butler owns the JG 26 website (http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/schlageter.htm) and does much of the graphics and artwork: the site's co-owner is Aviation Historian Don Caldwell, (Donald Caldwell: Author and Historian) whose expertise on JG26 is legendary. I presume Don wrote the article critiquing Gröhler's statistics and pointing out where they are questionable. If you read it carefully the article has nothing to do with the nonsense Ctrain is writing.
I dont know how this argument continues, didnt the germans convert the FW 190 fighter into a fighter bomber because of the Ju87s vulnerability? .
Yes they did but while the Fw was more survivable against fighters it was a much worse ground attack plane due to very low accuracy (same as P-51 and P-47 in ground attack role).
Tante Ju
please bear in mind that these aircraft wernt developed in a vacuum. German aircraft had to take down B 17s and B24s while Allied aircraft didnt. The USA for better or worse standardised on 0.5" MGs the British also for better or worse on 20mm cannon both of which were adequate to take down a 109 or 190. Germany throughout its military used a huge range of calibres which caused its own logistical problems.
Is it possible to syncronise a gun to fire through a contra rotating prop or a 5/6 pladed prop and what is the rate of fire?
Adding guns under wings as on 109 detracts substantially from performance the Typhoon became the Tempest which had 4 cannon in the wings.
I dont know how this argument continues, didnt the germans convert the FW 190 fighter into a fighter bomber because of the Ju87s vulnerability? All ground attack ACs are vulnerable to some extent especially with a radiator. The Ju87s forte was supporting advancing troops when it faced with no opposition. When it didnt have air superiority it was vulnerable and impossible to defend in its dive.
Adding armour decreases payload and speed.
The Il 2 was perhaps the most armoured AC in the war and also suffered the heaviest losses of any Soviet marque.
I think Normandy counts as a land battle as did the Battle of the Bulge in both battles allied fighter bombers played a major part.
Ctrian you seem to be saying that a Ju 87 is superior because it hits the target while its inability to reach the target or return from it is not important. As soon as Germany lost control of the air the Ju87 had had its day. In a P51 or Typhoon/tempest no escort is absolutely necessary what were the losses of Ju87s AND their escorts on the eastern front?
I showed that in the East they had low losses despite flying a lot.In the West even the Bf and Fw had high losses.Bottom line if the enemy doesn't have crippling air superiority a dedicated ground support aircraft is the way to go .If he has crippling air superiority then ANY kind of aircraft will suffer.What is worse having a fighter that survives the mission but doesn't hit anything or a Stuka that will destroy a bridge ,depot ,train etc but will not come back? The Fw ground attack also had heavy losses but without the effect on the field.
"In his September 1943 address to his fellow Stuka pilots, Oberstleutnant Ernst Kupfer insisted that Junkers 87 flying units were "on the verge of extermination" at which time he also noted that ground fire accounted for 80% of Stukas lost to enemy action. It follows that Kupfer would endorse the air-cooled Focke-Wulf 190, for its higher speed and manueverability was now essential in the face of intense antiaircraft fire.
Kupfer added that Ju-87 pilots no longer favored vertical dives due to excessive losses from enemy fire during the pull outs. He reasoned that even though vertical bombing was technically more accurate if done properly, better reflex sights could offset the difference. Ground fire or not, the Ju-87 was a sitting duck for the Yaks and Lavochkins. Kupfer dismissed the Stuka and the heavily armored Russian Il-2 as obsolete in concept; only able to operate with substantial fighter escort.
Among his other thoughts, Kupfer advocated that because the individual tank was an elusive target, the pilots should increase attacks on the more vulnerable supply convoys that supported the enemy tanks, because destroying their fuel and spares was just as likely to halt the armored breakthroughs.
Finally, Kupfer used tanks as an analogy, when he stated that "We created the Tiger, the Panther, the Ferdinand with enormous strength, thick plates of armor. But we saw from the air time and again in the slaughters at Kursk, Belgorod, and Orel that even these tanks could be stopped by Flak and by Pak" … expensive high-tech machines knocked out by cheap and easy to replace towed guns."
" Kupfer advocated that because the individual tank was an elusive target, the pilots should increase attacks on the more vulnerable supply convoys that supported the enemy tanks, because destroying their fuel and spares was just as likely to halt the armored breakthroughs."
He wasn't daft was he. If I was at home I'd dig out the actual figures for armoured vehicles destroyed by allied fighter bombers during the Normandy campaign. That's specifically armoured vehicles. It is very low indeed. Maybe someone else has them to hand.
Steve
I agree in 1942 change of things. But in opinion, Allied designs, including Soviet, were very poor in early war with many flaws... all these well known.. negaive G, lack of cannon, too weak engines, poor designs with old fashioned airframes.. no drop tank.. production failures etc. In 1942 designs got better, same class as German or Japanese, flaws eliminated.
This and earlier you showed weapons got much heavier in P-47, Spitfire. I ask: and? Weight of guns is not measure of weapon effectiveity. Was Type V Hispano worse than Type II? It was lighter.. but fired more. Was Soviet B-20 cannon worse than Swak? It was lighter for certain.. so you comparison analagou would show weapon was bad in comparison because it was, gun and ammo, lighter.
Sorry to say, this is flaw in logic.
Measure of firepower is weight of own shots in enemy plane, not weight of shots and gun in own plane.Accuracy, concentration fire, shell power, number of shell, ammunition available - these count. Weight of guns - do not help. Less weight, the better. Also trends. Trends were centralised guns - Soviet, French design too - ...
.....increasing armament - 109G had increased armamanet, three cannons, two machineguns. Surely there was no lack of firepower with 3 MG 151/20. And before you say - decreased manouverabiliy!
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Why, add weight did not decrease manouverability in Spitfire? Typhoon? FW 190? Add armament, add weight. Decrease manover. All planes. Was new trend plane Typhoon more heavily armed than 5 point Messer? No. Was it more manouverable - no, it was less. Was new trend plane 190 more heavily armed than 5 point Messer? No. Was it more manouverable? Again, no. NIIVVS tests show similar.
Soviet considered 109G world class. Very fast, very good climber, 5 pointer Messer heavy hitter too. You forgot 5 pointer - and all 109G can be five pointer.Soviets were also saddled with the VK-105 engine, 85% of the power of the DB 605A. Their part wood construction was also heavier than all metal. 'Standard' factory finish often meant 20-30kph less speed than trial figures. 109 would certainly look world class. I did not forget the '5 pointer'. One of the original Pro 109 poster's in this last flurry of posts was running down the Mike Williams site for using the performance figures of the '5 pointer' in his comparisons. Fine and dandy, you want to argue the flight performance of the '3 pointer' you don't get to use the armament performance of the '5 pointer' and vice versa.
Regarding range - range was much better than 109E. 109E was very poor.
1600 km range, 5 1/4 hours in air. Sufficient for any task. Why add fuel capacity (weight), if not requested by official? If operation not require it? Did German had to escort B-17s from London to Berlin? Fly in Paicific carrier battles? Name task it was insufficent..
Great, we are comparing theoretical ferry ranges? 200mph at 16,500ft is a nice speed for moving a plane from one point to another. It is also almost a guaranteed way to get dead flying in a combat area. You are aware that a Spitfire MK V can do 225mph at 10,000ft burning 29 gallons an hour or 263mph at 20,000ft burning 36 gallons an hour? not quite what the 109F can do but slap even a 90 gallon tank under it and see what you get. If the 109 isn't short ranged then neither is the Spitfire. Under realistic conditions, say 340-350mph at 20,000ft or so, and making allowances for combat 2 -2.5 gallons a minute and neither one is going that far. The Spitfire had room for more tankage. the 109 not so much.
And I really like the logic. Compared to other fighters the later 109s were short ranged, but since they didn't need long range for the few types of mission they were still doing we shouldn't use range as a factor in seeing if they were still world class?
I disagree. British armament was technological backward. Look at armament - guns in wings, 4-5 meters apart. Concentration fire - poor. Soviet had Spitfires, considered weapons badly located. All Soviet aircraft had weapons concentrated in nose. Also 109, P-38 etc. All post war aircraft had weapons concentrated in fusealge. Wing armament - simply backward. Very much weight added for much less effective increase in practical firepower. Reason: wing installation less rigid. Less ammunition in wing. Two guns, but two guns rarely hit target at same time. Two guns weight for one guns firepower.
and what does this say about the guns on the '5 point Messer' which aren't even in the wing but hung in pods underneath?
I am not arguing about which gun was better, guns changed over the life of many of the planes. The planes with a larger amount of weight and volume devoted to armament could be upgraded easier. The gun that was supposed fire through the prop on the 109 changed at least 4 times. the original 20mm design was a bust and they had to try to substitute a 3rd MG 17 as a stop gap. The 20mm MG/ff was also intended (2nd try) but never worked well enough for combat. The Germans finally get a working motor/cannon with the MG/151 in either caliber. The change to the MK 108 was better in some ways, not so good in others. The 109 had the weight allowance and volume for the motor cannon. After that everything was sort of a bodge.
Russian planes powered by V-12s had the same problem as the 109 with some factors worse and others better. The engine was low on power and never really got better, this means a small plane to get performance. Wooden construction of some types meant high structure weights and low volume in some interior spaces. Russians sacrificed gun life to make light, fast firing, high performance guns. The lighter guns and low ammo loads were necessary for performance but the Russians were not happy with the 3gun fighters unless it was 3 20mm guns.
First part - endurance - you have wrong facts. Late 109G and Konrad had good endurance. For example why need more than 5 hours endurance. British papers above show.
We have been over that but try this. A DB 605 burns 10.68 litres a minute while using MW-50, say they use it for just 5 minutes. 54 litres. the engine burns 8.03 litres at 'normal' take off power, say this power is used for 10 minutes (USAAF planners called for 15-20minutes) another 80 litres. 266 liters left if the plane was carrying a drop tank and dropped it at at the instant the engine went to full MW50 power or full take off power when at altitude. The engine burns 6.43 litres at the short power setting (30 min?) The engine in the "F-4" was good for 1.66litres a minute at that low cruise setting but that speed is useless if there is a chance of enemy planes about. Some old books claim a range of 350 miles at 330mph at 5,800 meters. no drop tank. This may very well be wrong but an endurance of just over an hour with no combat allowance does limit German options. Like fighters based in Wiesbaden-Frankfort can't reach a bomber stream routing through Bremen and return without drop tanks, or landing near Bremen after combat.
You mean a heavy plane like the Ta-152H with 263 gallons of internal fuel? What were they thinking?Why would the Bf range be an issue in Europe provided that the LW had bases everywhere and the advanced technology of drop tanks was known? The only other option is to build a fighter with lots of weight to store the extra fuel .That's not a good choice for the LW or any airforce not invested in ''Strategic''TM bombing.