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Bill,
Lednicer Crumpp are saying the same thing:
By Gene:
Correct, however the harsh stall of the NACA 230xx is without twist. The reason for the twist was to improve stall characteristics. The wing was left straight at the ends to gain the benefits of elliptical lift production at the tips making the tips more efficient and reducing induced drag production.
When aeroelasticity removes this twist then the FW-190 exhibits a harsh stall.
David Lednicer conducted a interesting CFD analysis of the Focke Wulf and these were his conclusions. It's the only reasonable explaination I have seen for the two contrasting stall behaviors of the Focke Wulf.
DerAdlerIstGelandet
Interesting little side note. A lot of people say that the problem with the 109 was because of its narrow track. pbfoot who has a 109E and a Spitfire readily available to him actualley went and measured them and the Spitfire's track was actually a bit narrower.Code:DerAdlerIstGelandet Interesting little side note. A lot of people say that the problem with the 109 was because of its narrow track. pbfoot who has a 109E and a Spitfire readily available to him actualley went and measured them and the Spitfire's track was actually a bit narrower.
Well, now that is really interesting to hear.
Regards
Kruska
I am delighted but mystified regarding why you continue to make my point?
I appears that Gene agrees my interpretation of the report including 'no twist' at the tips.. I pointed that out and suggested to you that Gene may have missed that in the report - you said you would trust him more than me - but it appears he agreed my point.
Summary - Gene superbly demonstrated that he can read and comprehend - no suprise.
You? No so much
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??
Crumpp Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!
Uh, no they don't say that.. and the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn.
Nothing about G forces 'achieve' elliptical lift in turns, they (G forces) only tend to shift lift distribution based on aeroelastic effects.
Check it out with Gene - have him copy me on the reply.
Quote from Gene:
Aeroelasticity is simply a byproduct of flying and all aircraft experience it. The NACA 23000 series of airfoils have a harsh stall with no washout due to the fact they produce elliptical lift along the entire airfoil. That means with no washout the entire wing stalls at once. This is why the FW-190's wing is twisted to prevent it.
Soren, have you ever seen the behavior of a dog with fleas on his Butt? They go around in circles. Check out this canine behavior and see if you can find a human 'flea powder' for debates?
We just finished settling the fact that the Fw 190 cut out the outer 20% span's twist - they sacrificed tip control for aerodynamic efficiency in a straight line
The wing was left straight at the ends to gain the benefits of elliptical lift production at the tips making the tips more efficient and reducing induced drag production.
This is true - and the reason it lost tip control at nearly the same time it lost the rest of the wing lift.. So? It was a design feature in cruise and an design flaw in high speed/high angle of attack manuevers.
When aeroelasticity removes this twist then the FW-190 exhibits a harsh stall.
Actually I am not exactly sure that the issue was torsion (remove the twist) Soren, in fact I suspect bending because of the outboard shift to lift distribution - as I indicated several pages ago - but you wouldn't know the difference. Inboard (and aft) shift of Lift distribution from the wing stress axis usually results from Torsion as the CP tends to move aft. Outboard from bending
And by Lednicer
A wartime Focke Wulf report (Ref. 14) indicates that at higher loading conditions (i.e. when pulling more gs) elastic deformation of the Fw 190 out wing shifts the load distribution outboard. This would cause even more of the wing to reach its stalling lift coefficient simultaneous. Combined with the sharp stalling features of NACA 230xx airfoils, this would produce the harsh stall found in by Capt. Brown. A gentle stall would be evidenced by a more gradual progression of the 2D stall spanwise.
So who was it that was having problems with reading comprehension again Bill ??
To Soren and Bill:
Not to try and be a moderator, but couldn't you at least ignore each other? These mud throwing from both sides gets really annoying. Or maybe start your own thread, so you can bash each other all day without bothering others with it.
You are right.. it is consuming too much time going in circles..
Then try to ignore him, it's the only way to stop this fruitless battling.
Ah, great minds think alike
Or witless ones? Just kidding - to you both.
Or witless ones? Just kidding - to you both.