Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109 K-4 vs La-7 vs Yak-3

drgondog · May 22, 2008

Hunter368 said:
The Momma (made by kruska) comment that was made was not needed, all it did/does is create more bad blood between you and Soren when you responded to it. It was not witty or called for. Surely you see it for what it was, mud slinging.

I understand you will say Soren does his fair share of mud slinging also, but will no one take the high road between you?

Then responded to the email in a great way, with facts and questions. But the damage was done already.

Hunter - go back to the thread by Soren requesting 'help - on his trying to decide about which rimfire rifle to buy - and note the tone I used in trying to help. Decide whether that was 'high ground' and cordial. I was absolutely taking high ground and trying to help him with experiences of my own.

Then go to the thread here, AFTER my posts of yesterday, where Soren posted Gene's email and view his attitude.

That's all I'm gonna say about 'high road'

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

Kruska said:
Hello Soren,

Maybe confused is the wrong word, maybe wringing for help-support describes it better. But anyway, please just disregard my post for the sake of a friendly continuation between our posts and opinions, okay

Regards
Kruska

I feel Soren is perfectly valid bringing in experts opinion. After all Bill is questioning Soren's lack of real education in the field, so why wouldn't Soren bring in another expert to prove his point to Bill (and help prove his point to all of us). Bill is discrediting or qestioning Soren's knowledge in the field, so let Soren bring in someone that Bill does respect to help win the debate. Sounds like a smart idea to me.

Not "wringing for help-support", just a smart thing to do. After all Bill is playing the "education card" that Soren does not have, so Soren bringing in a expert is fair.

Soren · May 22, 2008

LoL, Bill quit it alright, just admit you were wrong for crying out loud!

You have clearly openly claimed that the Fw-190 did NOT achieve elliptical lift distribution in turns, you were proven wrong first by me then by Gene.

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

drgondog said:
Hunter - go back to the thread by Soren requesting 'help - on his trying to decide about which rimfire rifle to buy - and note the tone I used in trying to help. Decide whether that was 'high ground' and cordial. I was absolutely taking high ground and trying to help him with experiences of my own.

Then go to the thread here, AFTER my posts of yesterday, where Soren posted Gene's email and view his attitude.

That's all I'm gonna say about 'high road'

Believe me I know I know, I seen your posts on rimfire thread. I give you credit, but don't stop now.

Example: Syscom can be the most annoying person to debate with on the face of the planet, as many of us will agree (Syscom take that smile off your face as you read this ). I admit I have lost it on him a few times over the years, said things I should not have out of fustration. But to Syscom's credit he never (very very rarely anyways) fires back with anything but facts (facts in his opinion anyways LOL), he keeps his cool. I respect him for that.

Soren · May 22, 2008

drgondog said:
Hunter - go back to the thread by Soren requesting 'help - on his trying to decide about which rimfire rifle to buy - and note the tone I used in trying to help. Decide whether that was 'high ground' and cordial. I was absolutely taking high ground and trying to help him with experiences of my own.

Which I appreciate Bill.

Then go to the thread here, AFTER my posts of yesterday, where Soren posted Gene's email and view his attitude.

I came across badly there Bill, I wasn't trying to gloat. But I'll apologize if that's how it came across, and since Hunter seems to agree it did then there you go.

That's all I'm gonna say about 'high road'

The problem is Bill you shift from high to low almost constantly. Remember YOU started this mess by provoking ME, YOU were the one wishing a fight. So I only see it as appropiate that you were the one to try and establish a bridge between you and I again.

Marcel · May 22, 2008

Maybe you (Bill and Soren) should both quit. Neither of you is going to admit anything and whatever discussion you both did, it never lead anywhere except for boring the hell out of the rest of us and having another thread closed.

Soren · May 22, 2008

said things I should not have out of fustration

Which I have undoubtedly also done in my fights with Bill, and I'm sure it goes both ways.

Fact is that when you're called a bonehead you're not really in the mood of saying; "Oh dang it, you were right!", and this I believe is the reason for Bill I's mud slinging.

Kruska · May 22, 2008

Hunter368 said:
Sorry you seem you also slightly misunderstood my post as much as I did yours.

Yes indeed Sorry to say but I missed out on the part about Soren proposing to drgondog to use - involve Crumpp.

Regards
Kruska

drgondog · May 22, 2008

Soren said:
Bill there's no point in dismantling the email, what was said was said to the specific question comment made, it's all in the original context.

I only quoted you once and Gene got to see the whole thread as-well, so he got the whole argument in its original context.

Now come on Bill, just admit you were wrong this time.

And you quoted me out of context Soren as well as add to your own original statement - when you had no clue about the aeroelastic effect to cause the stall.

Here is your email to Gene

Hello Crumpp,

I (Or we) need your knowledge on something, you see recently I got into an argument with a member at another forum for saying this:

The Fw-190's wing achieved elliptical lift distribution during G's because of aeroelasticity negating the original 2 degree twist applied to the 190's wing. This is what caused the violent departure in turns when pulling G's as compared to when stalling at 1 G.

This I learned from reading your posts as-well as Lednicer's article, however now I am being told I have misunderstood you Lednicer by Bill, who you seem to know already. Bill says :
"the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn"

I disagree with what Bill says.

Here is the exchange with your original point and my reply to it

Originally Posted by Soren
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??

Crumpp Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!

Bill replies - "Uh, no they don't say that.. and the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn.

Nothing about G forces 'achieve' elliptical lift in turns, they (G forces) only tend to shift lift distribution based on aeroelastic effects."

Check it out with Gene - have him copy me on the reply."

You care to point out how your quote of what I said to gene - is in context? I underlined the aeroelastic 'addition' to your original statement to me to show how you 'alter' truth in your 'original quotes'

Would you say you didn't alter the context by not telling Gene that the statement I made was in reply to your statement, and that it was a rebuttal? Or 'add' the aeroelastic piece to your email comment when

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

I think I see a little light at the end of the tunnel Soren and Bill!!!! Keep it going guys.

Bury the hatch.

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

Well perhaps Bill did not see Soren's last post or two.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 22, 2008

Hunter368 said:
Example: Syscom can be the most annoying person to debate with on the face of the planet

I will agree with that. I have butted heads with him probably as much as with Soren.

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I will agree with that. I have butted heads with him probably as much as with Soren.

I agree, I have walked away from the computer b/c of him out of frustration. It is like talking to a wall at times with Syscom.

But he does not respond with rude remarks, just "his facts". Which I respect.

drgondog · May 22, 2008

Marcel - you are right - it is boring and I will stop.

If Gene agrees with Soren he will let us all know and I welcome the correction after he reads this thread.

Regards,

Bill

Hunter368 · May 22, 2008

Well said Bill

Soren · May 22, 2008

Thank god!

I will accept what'ever Gene says as I know he knows more than I Bill do.

drgondog · May 22, 2008

Soren said:
LoL, Bill quit it alright, just admit you were wrong for crying out loud!

You have clearly openly claimed that the Fw-190 did NOT achieve elliptical lift distribution in turns, you were proven wrong first by me then by Gene.

I thought I could quit but for the last time you have misquoted me again Soren

Originally Posted by Soren
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??

Crumpp Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!

Bill replies - "Uh, no they don't say that.. and the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn.

Nothing about G forces 'achieve' elliptical lift in turns, they (G forces) only tend to shift lift distribution based on aeroelastic effects."

Check it out with Gene - have him copy me on the reply."

Care to parse this one more time..??

I said they ALL had elliptical like distributions BEFORE the turns and in the turns - ALL, BEFORE, IN are the key words.

the reason I said 'eliptical like' is that no wing IS pure 'elliptical' except pure elliptical planform wing - although varying tip top chord ratios can approach that. (I said that and Gene said this about tip geometry)

I said the Spit had More of an elliptical wing loading.. Gene said The Spit Had More elliptical wing loading. The reason the Spit wing fell away from Pure is that a) twist at the wing tip to delay tip stall, and b.) it wasn't a pure elliptical planform.

Marcel · May 22, 2008

Soren · May 22, 2008

when you had no clue about the aeroelastic effect to cause the stall.

I was aware of that from the very beginning Bill and a long time before that as-well.

Marcel · May 22, 2008

Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109 K-4 vs La-7 vs Yak-3

Which is the best at the below criteria?

Spitfire XIV

Bf 109K-4

La-7

Yak-3

Major

Tech Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

Tech Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

rotartsinimdA

1st Lieutenant

Senior Airman

Major

Tech Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Tech Sergeant

Major

Tech Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

Major

rotartsinimdA

1st Lieutenant

rotartsinimdA

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