Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Try again and see my post.
The Merlin 66 did not have 1710hp at sea level, it had 1705hp at 5750ft and had to use a partially closed throttle at sea level (much like the DB 605A puts out 1475ps at sea level but 1525-1550ps at a bit over 2000m). Merlin 66 was good for a lot closer to 1600hp at sea level.
The 20mm gun installation was worth a few mph, drag yes but little to do with the "dirty underside". the increase in weight of over a ton means higher induced drag. We can account for 8-12mph just in the induced drag and guns (minimum), Between just those losses from drag and the actual power being lower than you figured the increase in drag from the "dirty underside" is heading for "insignificant" really quick.
Well maybe this will help you. Merlin 66 had 1680 HP at SL (+18/3000), so my conclusions are still correct. There's no likely involved. Source British datasheet for Merlin 66, clearly noting SL power.
So the real question is - how much the Griffon 65 had at SL under static condtions? 1840 is for 400 mph ram. Likely the static condition is closer to 1900 HP at SL for Griffon. That means the aerodynamic effiency loss between the Mark I and Mark XIV is even slightly more severe.
Well let's see. 1 ton weight increase worth about 5 mph speed loss (from kurfurst.org site, for 109 but good ballpark for Spitfire.). Cannon installation - about 10 mph loss. Say another 5 mph for everything else - new antanne, changed shape winshield etc.
That still leaves about 20 mph loss is due to things on the dirty underside. My take is that most of it is really coming from the much enlarged and doubled radiators.
Really don't know the Spitfire, do you? The XIV had a whip aerial, which gave less drag than the aerial mast, plus HF aerial wire, of the Mk.I, a thin bar-type Mk.III I.F.F. aerial, which gave less drag than the pair of Mk.II aerials of the early Marks, and the internal-armoured windshield, which also gave less drag than the externally-armoured type (introduced at the time of Dunkirk,) was introduced on the Mk.V, and never changed (except for the curved type on some P.R. variants) its shape throughout the war.Well let's see. 1 ton weight increase worth about 5 mph speed loss (from kurfurst.org site, for 109 but good ballpark for Spitfire.). Cannon installation - about 10 mph loss. Say another 5 mph for everything else - new antanne, changed shape winshield etc.
The Speed Spitfire was the 48th production Spitfire, so quite what your point might be is rather lost; also it was flush-rivetted throughout, which is rather different from your nonsense about domed rivets, which never existed in the first place, except on the rear fuselage.http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/supermarine-spitfire-variants-the-initial-merlin-powered-line.html/2
"All panel lines were filled and smoothed over, all round headed rivets on the wing surfaces were replaced by flush rivets and an elongated "racing" windscreen was fitted. A tailskid replaced the tail wheel. Finally the "Speed Spitfire" was painted in a highly polished gloss Royal Blue and Silver finish. As it turned out, the finished aircraft actually weighed some 298 lb (135 kg) more than a standard 1938 vintage Spitfire..
Unfortunately, MAP got it wrong (research moves on, as you'd discover if you tried it); the 100% flush rivetting started, from June 10th., 1943 with the Vc., and the wing + painting improvements started even earlier, from 25-9-42."According to an old MAP publication I own, from MK XII onward all rivets were of the flush type. Wing leading edge rivets back to the rear of the "D" section were also filled and sanded smooth as this area was found to have a pronounced effect on top speed."
Not everybody gets their facts right, which is why it's best to find more than one source, and cross-check. The Mk.I had wooden strips on the bottom of the ribs, to which the skins were attached by countersunk (which equals flush) screws.Certainly I have read that the lower parts of the Spitfires wings were not flush rivetted, at some point anyway.
.My statement that the retractable tailwheel versions was "little produced" stands, even by your own figures which claim 22%. My statement that production of the Spitfire was about 25,000 also stands if one includes the Seafire
Which proves what? You said they were few in number, and I said they were 1 in 5, and a fair number of the "post-war" Spitfires were already in production before the war ended, very suddenly, in September 1945, when everyone expected it to continue for much longer. If you're worried about the "squid ink of hair-splitting," perhaps you should stop using it.Quite a few of those retractale tailwheel types were post war griffon engined Spitfire/Seafire I would say that most folks can see through the squid ink of the hair splitting.
History, of course, records nothing of the sort, since there were 3985 Spitfires with retractable tail wheels, out of 20,334, which = 19.59%, and the first fighters were some of the Mk.XII all VIII airframes (yes, they really were that early.) The 21, which just entered service in 1945, also had full wheel covers.History of course records that few Spitfires had the retractable tailwheel and non had full wheel covers. Both would have had a significant impact on speed. Both were standard on most other fighters of the era.
No, "we" don't, since the VII, VIII, and XIV (slated to take over from the IX, which is why so many IXs were given away, especially to the USSR) all had retractable tail wheels, so your "loss" drops to just over 6mph, and that is "chump change," when you add in multi-ejector exhausts (gain of 5-7mph,) removal of ice guard (+ 3mph,) round, faired mirror, instead of square (+ 3mph.) cut-down ejection chutes (+ 1mph,) narrow, instead of broad, blister over cannon bay (+ 1mph.) You see, it wasn't just the super-efficient Germans who considered ways to improve aerodynamics.Tests on the Me 109G indicated the following.
1 Covering Up the Remainder of the exposed Wheels: +10kmh.
2 Retractable Tail Wheel over non retractable: +12kmh
3 Extended Retractable Tail Wheel, if fitted +17kmh.
4 Loss due to MG 131 bulges -9 kmh.
5 Loss due to faired over MG 131 bulges -3 kmh.
Applying 1 and 2 above as indicative for the Spitifre we have a potential loss in speed of 22kmh, or about 13-14mph.
So Britain would have surrendered, but still been allowed to run the Commonwealth? That's pure Hollywood-style fantasy, and you know it.In fact Hitler wanted Britain to keep its empire as he saw only someone worse taking it over should a German victory be used to liberate it to itself.
Well, here goes "likely" (= guess) again.An amphibious assault for which Germany lacked the Navy (paltry 36 submarines) would take a long time. By then the cabal of "human interest" journalists likely would have brought the US to Britains side and Germany would face the Soviets and the US/Britain.
Would've, should've, could've, here we go again, with the never-ending guesswork; try returning to the real world, and its ice-cold facts; we won, you lost.Take out the fear of the US entering the war and the Soviet Union both German Navy and Lutfwaffe resources would have been applied and there would be no victory at the BoB, just historical notes about how the RAF had favourable attrition rates for a while but lost when tactics were changed
Recipe on getting the Spitfire V going 400 mph (also on speeding up the Mk.I and Mk.IX), provided by Kurfurst in an old thread. Interestingly enough, there is no mention of fully retractable covered U/C.
Banned.
Oh, does anyone know why, he seemed like a respectable poster?
Regarding the drag from wheel covers and retractable tail wheels I believe the following NACA reports are useful.
ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19930092668
ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19930092657
There's nothing mentioned, but a "stopper" was employed to fill the rivet "divots" on the wings' leading edges, so I'd hazard a guess the same material would have been used for any gaps.Edgar, do you know if the spitfire employed sealing in the wheel well? I'd imagine that there are a good number of related work orders if so.
I've never seen any, sorry.Another point raised in the naca report is the thickness of the radio mast being responsible for most of the masts drag. Are there accurate drawings of the spits various masts?