davebender
1st Lieutenant
It's a shame RLM cancelled DB603 engine program during 1937 to 1940. 1941 Me-110F might have been a star performer powered by the larger Daimler-Benz V12.
Spring of 1940: importance achievements of Bf-110
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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wiking85
Staff Sergeant
The Ju88C was using the 1180hp Jumo 211B in 1940, while the Bf110C was using the Db601B at 1080hp. So the Ju88C had 200hp more than the Bf110 of the period. As was already mentioned the DB601N or P wasn't available in numbers prior to August and they didn't go to the Bf110C, but rather the Me109E.
Absolutely. In fact it would have turned many German aircraft into performers, including the Ju88, which could handle the big engine better than the smaller Bf110.
parsifal
Colonel
Ju88 was also for a slightly different role. It was a true long range fighter as oppsed to the Bf 110 which had only 1/3 the range. Ju88C was not intended to take on SE fighters in a dogfighting role , it was meant to outrange them, go around them if you like. Me 110 were designed to at least be able to enter enemy controlled airspace and take on enemy defending fighters at some range. An incredibly demanding spec, and one that I think the Me 110 could do, albeit with some severe limits applied, whereas a Ju88C really could not.
Ok so from July-Oct 1940:
Total Hurricane and Spitfire losses in the first two rows = 932
Total RAF (must be mainly Hurricane and Spitfire) losses in the last two rows = 1120
Obviously, there's something wrong with these figures.
the victories are claims
From the above:
"October 1940 it turns out that in approximate figures the authentic victories versus actual air battle losses where:"
true so 188 are others RAF planes
- Thread starter
- #30
The fighter engines need to be assesed by their altitude perfromance, rather than T.O, or low level output. Eg. the DB-901 A/B were making 800-850 at 6km, the Jumo 211B was making ~830 PS at same altitude. Or, between 3 and 4 km altitude, the power is ~900 PS for the 211B, the 601 making slightly more than 1000 PS there.
The power charts for the DB can be found on Williams' site, and in this site for Jumo.
Curiously enough, those values are for 5 min Kurzleistung for the DB-601, while the Jumo-211 can do that for 30 minutes - a better engine for the Fw-187 than the DB?
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Where were heavy fighters operating though during the BoF? If they were attacking airfields then it was below 3-4km, so that low level performance matters more.I think that is also more where they were confronting fighters, as they were busy hitting ground targets or were protecting bombers that were, which pulled enemy fighters to that level.
Can you post a link to the Jumo and DB power charts?
I have no idea who Williams is or where on this site to look for the Jumo reference.
Quite so,and it was never going to happen,fortunately for the British. The Luftwaffe simply wasn't balanced to undertake a campaign like the BoB. The Channel is a more significant obstacle than a wide river which is how Luftwaffe planners treated it,particularly given the limited range of their single engined fighter.
Parsifal's post above accurately describes the carnage that the Luftwaffe inflicted on enemy air forces in earlier campaigns,it would do it again later,most was done on the ground.
When confronted with a coordinated air defence system,equipped with a rudimentary early warning system and excellent command and control this was not possible. The BoB exposed serious flaws in Luftwaffe tactics and German strategy as well as the limitations of some of its aircraft.
The Bf 110 was not the only one "found out".
Cheers
Steve
- Thread starter
- #33
Parsifal might provide a better answer about the height the Bf-110 operations during BoF.
If the inbound strike aircraft are confining themselves into a low altitude flying, all the time, they are giving the chance for the enemy to pounce them from above, while the same enemy has less time to climbing order to catch the threat.
The low level performance was slightly better for the DB601 and Jumo 211 of 1940 vintage, from 50-100 PS from 1-2,5 km. The Jumo have had the advantage of high power duration, 30 min vs 5 min for most altitudes while making the same power, the DB's 30 min rating is equal or better from 3-4 km.
Mike Williams site, part where you can find the data about DB-601:
Me 109 E Performance
This forum, manual for Jumo-211 B-H (scroll a bit for the power graph):
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/junkers-ju-211-manual-6752.html
parsifal
Colonel
Not sure that there was a consistent height used by Me 110s, but I really dont know. We will need one of the LW gurus to answer that question, if there is a consistent height envelope
The Me 110 was an element of the LW arsenal, and the LW was designed for a purpose, being a supportiing role for its armies and to a much lesser extent, its Navy. When the battle problem confronting it was within its mission envelope, it generally completed that mission with exceedingly good effieincy. But take it outside that envelope, ask it to do something that it was not designed for, and it struggled, sometimes a little, often a lot...... The Me 110 was a microcosm of that situation. It was designed for a purpose, and could undertake that purpose quite well. Take it outside that purpose and it did not do so well.
The Me 110 was an element of the LW arsenal, and the LW was designed for a purpose, being a supportiing role for its armies and to a much lesser extent, its Navy. When the battle problem confronting it was within its mission envelope, it generally completed that mission with exceedingly good effieincy. But take it outside that envelope, ask it to do something that it was not designed for, and it struggled, sometimes a little, often a lot...... The Me 110 was a microcosm of that situation. It was designed for a purpose, and could undertake that purpose quite well. Take it outside that purpose and it did not do so well.
The Bf 110s performed a variety of roles during the battle of France. They did provide escorts for bombers and transports as well as carrying out ground attacks. The ground attacks consisted of strafing rather than bombing.
Most Bf 110s of the period were not equipped for bombing,the first fitted with bomb racks were not used until July 1940 by Erpr.Gr.210. Only the Gruppenstab and 2.Staffel were initially equipped with this version designated Bf 110 D-0/B. The "dackelbauch" fairing and tanks were removed to make way for the bomb racks.
Until mid August 1.Staffel continued with the 30mm cannon armed Bf 110 C-6,which it had retained from its previous incarnation as 1./ZG 1.
Both the bomber and 30mm armed versions reflect the Luftwaffe starting to consider the Bf 110 as a ground support rather than destroyer/fighter aircraft but the wheels turned very slowly.
I don't think it is possible to generalise about what altitude the Bf 110s operated at. Obviously the range was fairly large from bomber escort to ground attack,it is sometimes possible to establish what mission a particular unit was undertaking on a particular day.
Cheers
Steve
Most Bf 110s of the period were not equipped for bombing,the first fitted with bomb racks were not used until July 1940 by Erpr.Gr.210. Only the Gruppenstab and 2.Staffel were initially equipped with this version designated Bf 110 D-0/B. The "dackelbauch" fairing and tanks were removed to make way for the bomb racks.
Until mid August 1.Staffel continued with the 30mm cannon armed Bf 110 C-6,which it had retained from its previous incarnation as 1./ZG 1.
Both the bomber and 30mm armed versions reflect the Luftwaffe starting to consider the Bf 110 as a ground support rather than destroyer/fighter aircraft but the wheels turned very slowly.
I don't think it is possible to generalise about what altitude the Bf 110s operated at. Obviously the range was fairly large from bomber escort to ground attack,it is sometimes possible to establish what mission a particular unit was undertaking on a particular day.
Cheers
Steve
- Thread starter
- #36
Initial tests were carried ot using a Bf 110 B-1 with the civil registration D-AAPY.
According to Vasco,twelve C-6s were built from C-5 (reconnaissance) airframes and 1./ZG 1 received its first examples in "the spring of 1940". At least two were flown operationally by the Staffelkapitan,Oberleutnant Martin Lutz,and Oberleutnant Victor Molders during the Western campaign which of course includes what the British call the Battle of France.
There is a good picture of Hauptmann Walter Rubensdorffer (Gruppenkommandeur of Erprobungsgruppe 210) talking to Albert Kesselring,both men standing in a group in front of a Bf 110 C-6. This can be positively identified as 30th July 1940.
The last confirmed use of a Bf 110 C-6 in the BoB is for S9+TH,shot down on a raid on Croydon airfield on 15th August 1940 with the loss of Leutnant Eric Beudel and Obergefreiter Otto Jordan,both killed.
Cheers
Steve
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http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/DB601A-B-oct40-pg22.jpg
This chart is for the 601A with 4.5km rated alt. From 5km on the 30 min rating became Dauerleistung, probably with rev increase to 2400 rpm. The altitude performance is very similar to the Jumo 211B.
- Thread starter
- #39
The values between 5 and 5,5 km, at 2400 RPM, are for 'Erhohte dauerleistung', ie.30 min rating. Under that, 2400 rpm and manifold pressures above 1,23 ata are still for 5' Kurzleistung. Above 5,5 km, the MAP of less than 1,15 ata (and still?) 2400 rpm, is for Dauerleistung (Max continous).
So annoying that people keep on talking about the ME110 while it should be the bf110.
But anyway. While the Bf110 was put into action extensively in the Dutch campaign, I don't believe it did anything that the Bf109 could not do. Therefor it was an overpriced fighter in that campaign. It was not able to intecept the many Dutch reconnaissance flights in the last 3 days, being too heavy and not nimble enough for the smaller Dutch aircraft. Also against the D.XXI it didn't prove to be too superior, while against the G-1 there is no evidence of superiority at all, apart from speed in both cases.
But anyway. While the Bf110 was put into action extensively in the Dutch campaign, I don't believe it did anything that the Bf109 could not do. Therefor it was an overpriced fighter in that campaign. It was not able to intecept the many Dutch reconnaissance flights in the last 3 days, being too heavy and not nimble enough for the smaller Dutch aircraft. Also against the D.XXI it didn't prove to be too superior, while against the G-1 there is no evidence of superiority at all, apart from speed in both cases.
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