Stuka vulnerability

Gixxerman said:

It was certainly not the 'wonder weapon' of the early war propaganda but I think nevertheless it was a very effective unit to have.

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It was. It is difficult to be sure how many were built but it's around 5,700. There were still 245 seviceable Ju 87s listed in the Luftwaffe QMG returns for January 10th 1945. It might have had its vulnerabilities but it certainly wasn't a dud.
Stukas sank tens,maybe hundreds, of thousands of tons of shipping,destroyed hundreds of aircraft (mainly on the ground),and hundreds of tanks. They offered close support to their Army and at longer range rendered enemy airfields inoperable.
The problem during the BoB was that when the Stukas did disable a British airfield (which they did several times) the Army wasn't going to follow up,allowing it to be repaired. They did interupt the merchant shipping in the channel and they did drive the RN's flotilla of destroyers out of the channel to safer waters. Using a tactical aircraft to achieve a strategic objective may have been a bridge too far for the Stuka in the BoB but it still gave a good account of itself.

I'm not sure that the Luftwaffe ever had 500 Ju 87s available. For example on 21st June 1941,ready for Barbarossa the Luftwaffe had an establishment of 334 Ju 87s of which 233 were operational. Most were Luftflotte 2 and Luftflotte 4,ready for the invasion. 42 (36 serviceable) were in Finland under Luftflotte 5. 40 (33 serviceable) were in North Africa with I./St.G.1 and others (can't find how many) with II./St.G.2 and I./St.G.3.

I doubt that the Luftwaffe had many more than 100-120 serviceable Ju 87s in place for the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Cheers

Steve

Perhaps ground defenses also initially improved and tactics then changed in response. That improbable dive bomber the A-36 suffered substantial losses against ground fire. Results, or at least survivability, improved with a change to glide bombing. Then the self-defending big iron tactical fighters with withering suppression gun fire, rockets etc became the standard, at least with the Allies. Effective but still risky.

The Ju 87 along with Blitzkrieg was initially successful with surprise and little ground defense. And then it wasn't –particularly so in a strategic BoB role.

like everything else the stuka had its day...after which it was successful in a shrinking number of circumstances. like the tanks that rolled into poland..had they used those later in the war they wouldnt have been nearly as successful. infact werent they inferior to the french tanks but the german tanks had air support while the french armored units didnt?

Air support and the German tanks were employed better. The French distributed their tanks for use as "mobile pillboxes" to support infantry units whereas the German Army grouped their tanks together and used them as an iron fist to punch a hole through the Allies' defensive lines with infantry following on behind to consolidate the ground taken.

During the BoB the Stuka only proved vulnerable when left exposed to fighter attack. This happened because it was being used (or mis-used) in a role for which it was not intended. It nonetheless caused considerable damage.
In the period leading up to the BoB they were less exposed,attacking targets in the channel and on the South coast. Ask anyone who was at one of the British airfields attacked.Dettling was flattened,22 bombers destroyed along with workshops and hangars,the station CO was killed. Manston,Hawkinge,Martlesham Heath,Tangmere,Ford,Lympne and a host of others were attacked. Some were badly damaged or rendered inoperable for a period. The RN lost HMS Foyle Bank,HMS Sandhurst,three destroyers and four lesser ships. 40,000 tons of merchant shipping was sunk. Many more ships were hit and badly damaged.
Total Ju 87 losses for July 1940.....12

At the start of Barbarossa the Stuka was once again used in it's intended role. In the intense fighting of the first 18 hours of Barbarossa it is estimated that 1,800 Soviet aircraft were destroyed. The Luftwaffe lost 20 to enemy action of which only 1 was a Ju 87. That's a pretty good return!

As the campaign progressed the Stuka was used in a CAS role which would look familiar today. Control was provided by a Panzer Verbindungs Offizier (Tank Liason Officer) who was a Luftwaffe officer travelling with the forward panzer columns. The Stuka units proved themselves to be highly mobile,moving rapidly to keep up with the advance. Only 24 Ju 87s were lost in the opening weeks of Barbarossa,again showing that the aircraft was not vulnerable when employed correctly.

It was also reliable,during this period the Ju 87 units were flying an average number of daily sorties equivalent to 75% of establishment strength. Few aircraft do that operating from home bases and these units were moving rapidly at the end of a very long supply line.

Total Ju 87 losses for September 1939 to June 1941 to all causes was 260. Good value for money,to this date the cost of Ju 87 production was a mere 3,059,000 RM.

Cheers

Steve

The Stuka was a good dive bomber and a good CAS aircraft but it's "reputation" in the spring/summer of 1940 was more than that.
Much like the Panzers, of which many weren't very good, they inspired a fear in their opponents out of proportion to their true abilities. A lot of effort was spent in infantry training to overcome "tank fear", the idea that once tanks showed up on the battle field the battle was lost. The Germans were well aware of this even if the French and British were not after the losses of the 4th Pz Div in Warsaw.

The Stuka (and the rest of the Luftwaffe) was being touted as being able to sweep all before it, with the army just having to follow behind and mop up. It didn't really work that way.
After the BoB the "myth" was broken. The Stuka could, as always, do plenty of good work and cause a lot of damage but it was not a war winning weapon on it's own ( it never had been) and neither was anybody else's dive bomber.

The Stuka's ability to dive bomb strong points and troop concentrations was due as much to the lack of an effect air defense as to any ability of the plane itself (and that is true of any dive bomber). TO troops that had been bombed repeatedly in a few weeks with little or no sign of their own fighters the Stuka became a symbol of the Luftwaffe air superiority. It was after all, the the plane they were dealing with/suffering from.

Separating the actual ability of the Stuka from this reputation may be a bit hard, both the "ability" and reputation come from a combination of doctrine, tactics and training, just like the "ability" and reputation of the Panzers. The Panzer I and II were crap tanks but a combination of doctrine, tactics, training and coordination (radios) enabled them to overcome technically better tanks.

The Stuka could not control a situation by itself but given support and proper tactics it could perform useful work for a number of years after 1940.

The Stuka was pretty helpless in contested airspace.

I am aware of only two major encounters between Stukas and Mustangs and in both cases large unescorted Suka formations were nearly wiped out. On June 6, 1944 the 355th caught 15 trying to sneak into the invasion beaches at dusk and shot down or forced down and strafed every one for no loss, and July 25th the 51st FG caught one of Rudel's formations in the wrong place near Mielec and nearly wiped them out. Rudel was one of the few limp offs.

With escort (like a B-17) it was formidable weapon. Absent escort in a high threat environment it was a slow moving, lightly defended, target. I don't think and SBD or SB2-C was particularly suited to defend themselves either.

In the hands of Vejtasa or Rudel they were more formidable but those instances (and pilots) are too rare to strike a conversation. Neither would express great joy at meeting Type Zero's and P-51s on a daily diet.

drgondog said:

The Stuka was pretty helpless in contested airspace.

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Exactly.

It shoudn't be and largely wasn't used in that situation. When it was,either by design or by accident (as happened a couple of times during the BoB) it got well and trully stuffed.

Steve