Stuka vulnerability

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It wasn't any more vulnerable than any other period dive bomber. A dive bomber without aerial superiority is a sitting duck.

I agree. Dive bombers are generally a more vulnerable than level bombers because of their tactical employment and limited size. We should look into these rather than looking into armament - in that regard, a Stuka or any other dive bomber was not really worse than say an early He 111. Both could generally point a single machinegun against an attacking fighter, which meant they were greatly outmatched.

Of course level bombers had more guns covering most attack angles, which could support the other bomber when flying in close formation. Dive bombers usually had guns firing to the rear, as turrets would be grossly unecomincal in their relatively small airframe (compared to a medium or heavy bomber's. Keep in mind that the Stuka is a rather sizeable aircraft still, for a single engine type!).

What was really important IMHO was how the DBs operated and attack. Stukas, especially later models were in fact quite capable of fending off fighters, especially single fighter attacks when flying in a mutually supportive formation. After the diving attack, the formation was always scattered, and took some time to reform. During that time, each dive bomber was on it's own, and usually the heavy losses were suffered if enemy fighters jumped them during this period - this happened a couple of times during the Battle of Britain, for example. In contrast, level bombers kept supporting each other during and after their bombing run, making them much less vulnerable, and of course their larger airframe could soak up a lot more battle damage.

The diving attack also made them relatively easy targets for light AAA guns, if present, as they flew close and on a predictable path.
 
Speaking of 1940: what bomber was more vulnerable, Ju-87 or Fairey Battle?

Vulnerability covers a large number of factors;

1. Speed and operating speed may be as important as top speed.
2. Maneuverability. and this one changes, Maneuverability with and without bomb load. If you are still trying to make it to the bridge and hauling 1000lbs of bombs or leaving the bridge running "light".
3. Climb ability or surplus power. It is all very well to be able to out turn a fighter but since even the fighters are either loosing speed or altitude in even a 3 "G" turn (most of the time) the dive bombers are going to run out of speed or altitude or both before the fighters do IF the fighters hang around.

That may cover evasion, then you have the aircraft as a target.
1. Size of the aircraft
2. passive protection, armor, self sealing tanks (and size of tanks), strength of airframe ( and most dive bombers were fairly tough or they couldn't be dive bombers)
3. active defense, guns. Forward firing guns were pretty useless against fighters, however effective they may have been against torpedo bombers. Not to say that some poor fighter pilots managed to fly in front of a dive bomber. Rear guns get very iffy for comparisons as most were the same size and the 12.7mm guns may not have been all that effective. A number of American gunners preferred the twin .30s to the single .50 as easier to aim. Ammo supplies may play a big role in repeated attacks. 69-100 round magaizines/drums vs belt feeds and were the belts continuous or in boxes that had to be changed?
Gunners seating position (or standing?), type of gun mount, room to work in and protection from slip stream all contribute to the ability (or inability) to aim guns aver a wide area.

Obviously one aircraft is not going to be the best (or worst) in all areas.
 
I think the SBD wouldn't have faired much better against LW Fw 190's and Bf 109's operating in the same conditions the Stuka had to deal with, but in the PTO it was one of the only bomber types of the entire war to enjoy a positive kill/loss ratio against enemy fighters.

Says who?
 
Not to say that some poor fighter pilots managed to fly in front of a dive bomber.

That actually is a tactic used by Stuka pilots during the BoB. When attacked and the fighter was on their 6, they would deploy the brakes, immediately lose speed and the fighter would flash by giving the Stuka a chance to fire with the forward guns.

Rear guns get very iffy for comparisons as most were the same size and the 12.7mm guns may not have been all that effective. A number of American gunners preferred the twin .30s to the single .50 as easier to aim.

It must be remembered that, like most evolving a/c, the early Dauntless' had only one rearward-firing MG. The SBD-3 introduced twin .50s.
 
That actually is a tactic used by Stuka pilots during the BoB. When attacked and the fighter was on their 6, they would deploy the brakes, immediately lose speed and the fighter would flash by giving the Stuka a chance to fire with the forward guns.

It may work one on one or two to two, It may not work so well if the fight is 12 to 12 as the plane pulling this trick will dropout of formation and while the first 1-3 attackers (depending on formation) go by any further attackers may have a real sitting duck target. Pilot pulling this trick is also depending on atacker/s to miss due to the trick.

That is another aspect vulnerability, defending formation of 3-6 planes, defending formation of 12-16 planes or a defending formation of of a group or wing, 30+ planes. 30+ planes is a target rich environment but it is also an awful lot of rear gunners ;)



It must be remembered that, like most evolving a/c, the early Dauntless' had only one rearward-firing MG. The SBD-3 introduced twin .50s.

SBD-3 which started production early -mid 1941 had twin .30s in the rear. I am not sure that any SBDs got twin .50.
 
You're right. Must have had a brain-fart on the .50s. :(

There were tactics that Stukas used for defense such as close support with multiple aircraft and single aircraft tactics like I mentioned. There was even a story of one Stuka who when badly hit during the BoB, feined serious damage and death, spun down for about 3000 ft until the RAF fighter flew away, then regained control and made it back to the Continent. They used some ingenious ways to survive.

I believe I read somewhere that of all the dive-bombers of that time for all nations, the Stuka was the most accurate.
 
It might be noted that the D version of the JU87 was significantly improved in several respects. Aside from the more than doubled defensive armament, it gained a significant amount of armor. It was also capble of carrying a heavy bombload, at least over short distances. Nevertheless, any of the WW2 dive bombers would have had heavy losses against serious fighter opposition.
 

Thanks for the reply. My question, however, was pointing to the fact that any bomber unit (featuring single engine bombers), while hauling the bombs, is a cold meat on the table for a decent and properly positioned fighter unit. Without fighter escort, Battles got mauled by LW fighters, Stukas got mauled by RAF.

BTW, what was the usual cruise altitude for the Battles?
 
I believe that by the end of the war dive bombing duties had pretty much been assumed by dedicated fighter bombers like P-47s, Hellcats Typhoons and the like

I agree except that none of those aircraft,nor the Spitfires,Hurricanes and P-51s,nor the German equivalent Fw 190 etc were dedicated fighter bombers. They were fighters pressed into a role for which they were not designed and which they carried out with varying degrees of success.

The dedicated dive bomber,including the Ju 87 could not operate safely in air space controlled by a well organised enemy. At the very least complete surprise (rare in the BoB) or temporary superiority over their area of operation had to be achieved. In 1940 the Luftwaffe tried to achieve both,particularly in the early "kanal kampf" and generally failed which is why,in the words of a previous poster, the Stukas got "toasted"

Cheers

Steve
 
Wikipedia gives 5,936 for SBD, and an estimate of 6000 for Ju-87.
 
RE: SBD Dauntless

How did the A-24 Banshees fare?
It seems that the Army found it too vulnerable?
For that matter, if the Army found dive bombers valuable, perhaps the A-36 Apache would have remained in production.
 
They were increasingly replaced in the ground attack role by Fw 190Fs from mid war. Stukas were never particularly numerous anyway.. but they did make a lot of noise, quite literally!
 
BTW, what was the usual cruise altitude for the Battles?

I don't know. Ranges given in the 1938 "Jane's" are for cruising at 16,000. But I am not sure it is accurate, the HP figures are all wrong. As I have said in other threads the Battle seems to have been a strategic bomber that was misused in France. Since it was seldom used anywhere else it's combat use vs it's intended use may be rather different. It used the same engine as the Hurricane and Spitfire which means that it's critical altitude was 16,250ft without RAM which is rather ridiculous for a divebomber/ground attack plane. Especially considering it limited take-off/low altitude power to 880 hp on 87 octane fuel. While there is no doubt that fighter command got 100 octane fuel there is little proof that the Battle squadrons in France got any. Using different supercharger gears would have lowered the critical height but boosted take-off power to between 1000-1080hp still on 87 octane which would seem a lot more useful for a low altitude plane.
 

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