Technology and Science from 1901 to 1945

parsifal · Dec 2, 2008

Soren

Just to simplify the issues, I will deal with one issue per post, if that is okay

Looking at the LVT issue, I have attached a table, which compares the main US LVTs to the LWS prototypes you are posting as superior. The LWS was not superior at all. It was higher, presenting a larger target. It was unarmed, and it was unarmoured. It could not load or transport vehicles or heavy loads of cargo, except with the aid of a cumbersome and impractical floating trailer that was abandoned as a development and research project in 1942

I have attached the main data that I have on these vehicles for your consideration

Glider · Dec 2, 2008

Soren said:
Adler I can provide sources for every single fact I have presented here, Tempest on the other hand is but speculating which is made clear by all the false information he has provided.

Anyway moving on...

It is quite clear that Germany held a technological edge throughout the war, emphasizing quality over quantity at every corner. This is also a part of the reason they lost the war. They spend a lot of labour on very advanced designs just to get a few out of the factory each week. And this is clearly seen in the equipment they fielded, they were constantly raising the technology bar higher. By the end of the war the Germans were fielding the best and most advanced aircraft, tanks, smallarms uboats in the world:

Aircraft:
Me-262, He-162, Ta-152, Ar-234 Ar-232.

AFVs
Pzkpfw.V, Pzkpfw.VI Ausf.E B, JagdPanther, JagdTiger, SdKfz. 234 etc etc

Large Guns:
128mm KwK/PaK44 L/55 60, 88mm KwK/PaK43 L/71, 75mm KwK/PaK42 L/70, 88mm KwK36 L/56, 105mm LeFH 18(M), 150mm K-18, 173mm K-18 210mm K-18.

Smallarms:
StG.44, Mauser 98, MG-42, MG-34, FG-42 S-18/1100.

Naval:
Type XXI Type XXIII

Other:
Infrared equipment (Vampir etc.), X-4, V-1 V-2, Fritz X, Wasserfall, Rheinbote, Enzian, Various computers Kommandogeräts incl. engine management control computers, autopilots and the Z-1/2/3 4 programmable computers in WW2 (Z-4 digital computer was demonstrated at the aerodynamic test facility in Göttingen in 45), Würzburg Radar etc etc...

The Western Allies took to concentrate on the middle ground, producing lots of good quality equipment while the Soviets emphasized quantity over anything else and went for highest mass production. Put together this was too much for the Germans to overcome.

And to a large degree, all of it supported by a logistics trail that depended on horses. A small fact that is often forgotten

timshatz · Dec 2, 2008

Glider said:
And to a large degree, all of it supported by a logistics trail that depended on horses. A small fact that is often forgotten

An excellent point.

bigZ · Dec 2, 2008

For me the most important technolgies from 1901 to 1945 where all invented by the Brits or the Americans:-

Aeroplane
Radio
Telivision
Sliced bread
Band Aid
Cellaphane
Polio jab
Scotch Tape
Cats Eye Reflector
Choc Chip Cookies
Radar

Marcel · Dec 2, 2008

bigZ said:
For me the most important technolgies from 1901 to 1945 where all invented by the Brits or the Americans:-

Aeroplane
Radio
Telivision
Sliced bread
Band Aid
Cellaphane
Polio jab
Scotch Tape
Cats Eye Reflector
Choc Chip Cookies
Radar

Who told you the Radar was invented by the British or American?

bigZ · Dec 2, 2008

Re-reading the thread I noticed I had missed the point. As the argument revolves around Military Tech 1936 to 45. In that case the Germans get an A grade the allies a A-. But I will be drinking a toast to celebrate the fact no matter how good the German Tech was it just wasn't good enough.

Glider · Dec 2, 2008

Marcel said:
Who told you the Radar was invented by the British or American?

For millitary purposes the invention is almost a draw between the UK and Germany.
But for the first use of the Radar PRINCIPLES then the shout goes to the USA.

In the Summer of 1926, the Americans Breit and Tuve became the first to use the principles of radar to measure the returning echo of the earth's ionosphere

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 2, 2008

Soren said:
Adler I can provide sources for every single fact I have presented here, Tempest on the other hand is but speculating which is made clear by all the false information he has provided.

Where, I have not seen anything but opinion from either of you.

Like I said, this thread is common recipe for a downward spiral.

Marcel · Dec 2, 2008

Glider said:
For millitary purposes the invention is almost a draw between the UK and Germany.
But for the first use of the Radar PRINCIPLES then the shout goes to the USA.

In the Summer of 1926, the Americans Breit and Tuve became the first to use the principles of radar to measure the returning echo of the earth's ionosphere

Nope, ever heard of Christian Hulsmeyer?
Christian HÃ¼lsmeyer â€" Wikipedia
It's in german but at the bottom you'll find an English pdf. This was in 1904.

Glider · Dec 2, 2008

Yes, I have and if you want to play the date game, then the first demonstration of electronic waves being reflected by metal objects was in 1886 by one Heinrich Hertz at the Unversity of Karlsruhe.
However neither of these were developed or more importantly used. Developers of all sides had enough trouble in the late 30's-early 40's with reliability, it would have been impossible to have a reliable system in 1904.

I did say the first practical use was in 1926. Theory is one thing, use another.

Marcel · Dec 2, 2008

You could be right, but the principle was not invented by the Americans and Christian even made a working instrument.

pbfoot · Dec 2, 2008

I think the biggest technological breakthrough was by a Serb called Nikolai Tesla whose invention of Alternating current which allowed every breakthrough to occur with the availability of electricity over long distances .

BombTaxi · Dec 2, 2008

To Soren and Tempest - does it matter who had the "most advanced" kit?. Technological prowess didn't allow the Germans to win, after all. The Allies won and the Axis lost, end of story. German technology was not sufficient to stand up to Allied (especially Russian) production. The relative quality of military equipment is a relatively minor factor in victory and defeat, even today. Me262s might have been very high tech, but stupid production priorities meant that there weren't enough of them in the right roles and places to make a difference. By comparison, Yaks were primitive... but there were thousands of them. The result was inevitable, really

parsifal · Dec 2, 2008

The Schwimwaggen

Cant see any clear advantage for either side here, but remeber it is Sorens contention that the Schwimwagen (and a whole lot of other bits and pieces) were superior to anything that the other participant possessed. Everyone who has see that statement, and knows differently, have pointed out that the supposition is opinion based only. The intent of this analysis is to present the facts, as far as possible to disprove the supposition that german equipment was superior in every category (Sorens position)

This post is analysing the Schwimwaggen (sorry if I mispelled it), with the Willys SEEP (literally Sea Jeep). To be honest, I cant see any appreciable difference between the two vehicles in terms of capability

German Type
Over-all length (with propulsion unit in
land-travel position) 140 in.
Over-all width 58 in.
Over-all height (with top up) 62 in.
Tread width, center line to center line 48 in
Wheel base 78 in.
Ground clearance (unloaded) 11.5 in.
Approx. depth of immersion when floating 30 in.
Freeboard (loaded) 13 in.
Payload 958 lb.
Weight empty 2,002 lb.
Engine capacity 1,131 cc.
HP 25
Max Overland Speed 50
Max water speed 6.1
No Produced 4625

American Type

Over-all length (with propulsion unit in
land-travel position) 182
Over-all width 64
Over-all height (with top up) 67
Tread width, center line to center line 52
Wheel base 84
Ground clearance (unloaded) 12.2 (approx)
Approx. depth of immersion when floating ??
Freeboard (loaded) 16 in
Payload 795 lb
Weight empty 3665 lb
Engine capacity 2195 cc
HP 54
Max Overland Speed 50
Max water speed 5.5
No Produced 12600

Judge for yourselves, but to me, there is lilttel or no difference in capability....and there are so many more of the American type.....

TempestMKV · Dec 2, 2008

BombTaxi said:
To Soren and Tempest - does it matter who had the "most advanced" kit?. Technological prowess didn't allow the Germans to win, after all. The Allies won and the Axis lost, end of story. German technology was not sufficient to stand up to Allied (especially Russian) production. The relative quality of military equipment is a relatively minor factor in victory and defeat, even today. Me262s might have been very high tech, but stupid production priorities meant that there weren't enough of them in the right roles and places to make a difference. By comparison, Yaks were primitive... but there were thousands of them. The result was inevitable, really

All I want to say is that: 3rd Reich was beaten by both quantity and quality. Overall, 3rd Reich had no tech advantage in WWII compared with allied.

Soren · Dec 3, 2008

Parsifal said:
Cant see any clear advantage for either side here, but remeber it is Sorens contention that the Schwimwagen (and a whole lot of other bits and pieces) were superior to anything that the other participant possessed.

Complete and utter bollocks, I never said anything which would even imply such a notion. It was YOU who brought forth a list which YOU claimed featured material the Germans did not possess, I thuroughly debunked that by presenting you with German technology within nearly all of those fields.

And as for the SchwimmWagen, well as far as I can see it was pretty much unmatched.

Now as to what I've been saying from the start, the Germans held the edge in terms of technology and science, that is just fact. But I never said that everything the Germans made was unrivalled or superior to anything the Allies made, which is what you claim Parsifal. That is something you need to get straight.

TempestMKV said:
All I want to say is that: 3rd Reich was beaten by both quantity and quality. Overall, 3rd Reich had no tech advantage in WWII compared with allied.

That however is completely untrue.

Soren · Dec 3, 2008

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Where, I have not seen anything but opinion from either of you.

Like I said, this thread is common recipe for a downward spiral.

Ok, here you go:

Thomas L. Jentz
Lorrin R. Bird
Peter R. Senich
Robert D. Livingston
Dietmar Hermann
Robert Bruce
Ian V. Hogg
Joachim Engelmann
Herbert Jager

parsifal · Dec 3, 2008

Soren

I quote the relevant part of your Post 34

It is quite clear that Germany held a technological edge throughout the war, emphasizing quality over quantity at every corner.

Your next post, directed at me gave a long list of equipment pieces. Am I now to believe that the two consecutive posts are not related to each other in any way, and that you will say one thing in one post, and then change your position (without giving any notice to that effect) in the very next post?????????

parsifal · Dec 3, 2008

Soren said:
And as for the SchwimmWagen, well as far as I can see it was pretty much unmatched.

An opinion, yet again, based on nothing except your opinion. Look at the performance comparison I have posted and you will see virtually no difference in the performance of the two vehicles.

But I never said that everything the Germans made was unrivalled or superior to anything the Allies made, which is what you claim Parsifal. That is something you need to get straight.

Oh yes you did....refer to your post 34. You shoulddnt tell such blatant porkies that everyone can see. I say this for your own benefit, ...it has a very bad effect on your reputation, particularly when I have only once seen you make anything like what most of us would see as an apology or retraction .

m kenny · Dec 3, 2008

Soren said:
, I thuroughly debunked that by presenting you with German technology within nearly all of those fields.

Well you did write this:

Soren said:
Germany was also the leader in radar infrared techonology, producing the best infrared imaging and being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms AFV's a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.

I want you to 'debunk' me (as I say your claim is total fabrication) by giving me

a) Sources showing that German IR sights were in production and use before the US issued their version in the Pacific.

b) Examples where "a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success."
Again I say these claims are fiction and that you made it up.
If of course you have nothing other than your imagination to back it up please feel free to ignore this challenge to your credibility (for 4th time)

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