TEX HILL'S P-51B MUSTANG

Discussion in 'Aircraft Picture Requests' started by STARMAN 352ND, Jul 2, 2006.

  1. STARMAN 352ND

    STARMAN 352ND New Member

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    Hello Mates,
    Does anyone have pic's of Tex Hill's P-51B Mustang with the victory stickers on it.
    I have only seen his Flying Tigers P-40 with the confirmed victory stickers on it.
    JP
     
  2. p_ortensie2005

    p_ortensie2005 New Member

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    Actually he didn't have victory markings on any of his planes. He did this as a strategy knowing that the Japanenese knew what they stood for. The planes with victories would be the ones the Japanese would attack first. Tex's P-51 had 4 variations, all in the nose cone. The nose cone was in the following colors: olive drab, red, a medium blue, and red, white, and blue. It had the sharks teeth, different from the P-40s, and the number 267 on the tail. The plane was beat to hell, in fact there was more sheet metal showing than there was paint. Revell Monogram has 1/72 scale version of a model kit similar to his plane. The only real difference is the tail. Eliminate the yellow stripes on the tail, and beat it up there you go. I hope this helps you out.
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Hi,
    Here is a pic of Tex Hill's P-51B.As you can see in the pic there weren't any victory stickers on it.The spinner was red coloured,on upper surfaces Olive Drab and on undersides Natural Grey.As far as yellow stripes on the tail are concerned I found that these were paited on P-51B-7-NA serial 43-6769 of 26th FS,51st FG in 1944.It was one of P-51s which was flown by David Hill ( or he took a photo with) during his second period of operational service.

    Sources :

    MustangsMustangs.com: Images of WWII, Pacific Theatre of Operations: PTO
    Image:Tx hill.jpg - The Air Combat Wiki
     

    Attached Files:

  4. thirtybg

    thirtybg Member

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    Here's a color view of the same ship shown in the above two photos. It was taken at a different time,
    but I believe that, just as the spinner is not red in the color shot, it was also not red in the other photos.
    That's not to say that it was never painted red, just that it does not appear to be red in any of these photos.

    [​IMG]
    Found on the web

    I haven't done much research on the subject of Tex Hill's Mustangs, or Mustangs of the 23rd and 51st
    Fighter Groups, but the ship shown in these photos appears to be from the 51st FG. (the yellow bands
    were not added until late 1944) It seems to me that, although he was not assigned to the 51st FG, it's
    possible that Tex would have flown aircraft from that unit from time to time, especially given the unique
    supply challenges facing USAAF units in the CBI. Or it's possible that he just happened to have his photo
    taken by a 51st FG ship.

    Wurger, one point concerning the serial number you provided... 43-6769 is often cited as the serial number
    for the P-51 pictured in these photos. However, P-51B 43-6769 served with the 381st FS, 363rd FG, Ninth AF,
    and was lost on April 22nd, 1944.
     
  5. eddie_brunette

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  6. eddie_brunette

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  7. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Hi Thirtybg ,
    Everything is possible dear mate.But and I have to mention some points.

    1. In my opinion, the pic you have uploaded was colourized and was B&W initially, I think it is incorrect done ( if the P-51 in your and my pics were the same one).Please look at the first pic and the second one I posted.If you look more carefully you can see that the iris of the shark eye was painted with different colour from the white bacground outline which was black.The iris seems to be of the same colour like the spinner and lower part of the shark jaw.Besides,look at the signs on the propeller blades,please, As memory serves there was the red colour in the logo of Hamilton Standard.So I think that the colour was red bat not black.The red colour in B&W pics has the tonality mostly.Additionally,the paint on the spinner seems to be better quality then the Olive Drab used for upper camo.I've made your pic B&W again and I'm still getting impression that the paint was different form the camo one.Of course there is possibility I'm wrong.

    2.The serial I've found in article about David "Tex" Hill in AERO magzine.The author of the article was supported by Col. David "Tex" Hill"s grandson Lt.Col. Reagan Schaupp


    BTW Eddie you have uploaded nice profile but you could add something else. And what did it happen to the first your post here?
     
  8. thirtybg

    thirtybg Member

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    No, it is a genuine color photo which has appeared in a number of publications over the years.
    The scan is somewhat poor, but it is clearly not colorized.

    I am highly confident that they are the same aircraft. There are differences, yes... due to
    the apparently different time-frames involved. But close examination of various details
    (mostly in the sharksmouth and some of the paint chipping) reveals too many exact matches
    in shape, line, and orientation for it to be otherwise. At worst, some of the cowling panels could
    have been fitted from one aircraft to another, but I doubt very much that this is the case.

    Look even more carefully. To the untrained eye there may indeed initially seem to be two
    different colors in the eye (three, including the white) because of the play of light and shadow.
    Also, there is the issue of dirt, dust, and grime. Some areas may be obscured by one or more
    of these, affecting the apparent tonal qualities of colors in a black and white photo.

    Yet another factor to consider is the image(s) used in comparisons and interpretations.
    Both the images you posted are small. One is of fairly good quality, while the other is relatively
    poor. Such images often create problems for those who attempt to interpret colors.

    The apparent match of tone in the non-shadowed portion of red from the sharksmouth and
    the iris area is indeed interesting, but again... light can play tricks with the human eye and
    with the lens of a camera, especially when dust and dirt get in the way. Tonal qualities can
    indeed be altered due to exposure to these and other elements. And that is undoubtedly
    what is happening in this case.

    (As an example... find something that is painted black, making sure that it is relatively clean
    and free from dust or dirt. Observe it from different angles and distances and in various lighting
    conditions. Then apply some dust or dirt to the same object and repeat your observations.
    You may be surprised at some of the effects which may become apparent to the naked eye.
    Photographic documentation, preferably with actual film, will also reveal some interesting results.)

    Here are closeups of the photos you posted...

    [​IMG]
    USAF photo

    [​IMG]
    USAF photo


    In the first photo there do seem to be inconsistencies in the black outline. However, yet again,
    take the previously mentioned variables into account for this. Light, shadow, dust, dirt, and photo
    reproduction... they combine to make life interesting for those who would attempt to interpret
    colors from a black and white photo. Nonetheless, in comparing the consistent areas, both in light
    and in shadow, it is more than evident that the color of the outline and of the iris is the same.
    And that color is undoubtedly black... as is the case with every single 51st FG P-51 I've seen with
    a sharksmouth and eye.

    Yes, the colors were red and gold, and I believe that sometimes there was some white as well.
    However, you cannot compare the red on those logos with the red of any paint that may have
    been used on the rest of the aircraft, for at least a couple of reasons...

    1) The red on the prop logo and the red in the sharksmouth would undoubtedly not have been
    the same in tone or value from the start. That is, to the layman, they would not have been the
    same shade of red and would therefore not appear to be of the same tone in a black and white photo.

    2) There is the issue of the actual materials involved, and the weathering properties of these
    materials. The red in the sharksmouth was paint, while the red in the prop logo was some sort
    of ink, and was printed as a decal. The inks used on these decals often faded much more quickly
    than paint.

    So, whatever the case regarding the logos in the photo, they are irrelevant to the comparison of
    the red in the sharksmouth and the color of the iris area in the eye.

    As I said, that serial has been cited incorrectly in a number of sources... that one included. Again,
    P-51B 43-6769 was assigned to the 381st FS, 363rd FG and lost on April 22nd, 1944.
    The MACR for this loss was #4222.

    Here is page 2 from that MACR...

    [​IMG]
    National Archives


    And a closeup showing the serial number.

    [​IMG]
    National Archives
     
  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Graet. So it can be said that in many publications Tex Hill's P-51B profiles are really incorrect.Point for you Thirtybg.:D
     
  10. STARMAN 352ND

    STARMAN 352ND New Member

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    Thanks guys for the info on Tex's P-51 I picked up a Eagles International P-51 1:48 diecast Mustang and i have to say it's really nice one to have.
     
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