The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war. (2 Viewers)

[Reluctant Poster]

Resp:
I was thinking the same thing; many, many aircraft played a vital role. Many were discussed at length.

As much as I love airplanes war usually boils down to boots on the ground. Even today in the nuclear age.

 

[buffnut453]

Resp:
Duly noted.
Tell that to the French people/the Germans on June 5/6 1944 when paratroopers landed at Normandy, and in Burma 1944 when the Chindits needed supplies. l believe we were speaking of significant aircraft contributions.

I think by 5/6 June 1944, the tide had already definitely turned for Germany. The case for the Chindits might be stronger on the Burma front but not from a wider Japanese strategic perspective.

 

[pbehn]

In terms of logistics the Liberty Ship was by far more important cargo carrier of WWII. For that matter the GMC 2 1/2 ton truck dwarfed the contributions of the C-47.

Research into the problems of the liberty ship gave birth to the UK Welding Institute and a massive leap forward in understanding of the weldability of steels and SAW welding.

 

[fliger747]

As far as we are wandering off topic with Liberty Ships, part of the issue was solved in the Victory Ships by increasing the frame spacing, making for a more flexible structure and reducing localized stresses. Welding is a very specialized skill and welding of ships and submarines particularly in need of skilled tradesman and excellent QC. Additionally thins was a fairly new technology at the time, still maturing, and with the rush of a "War ON" it's amazing that it worked as well as it did!

Back to the original topic? Maybe the F6F Hellcat, tough, reliable, versatile and good enough at what it was called upon to do. A little hard to bifurcate the theaters, but unless we had been able to achieve air superiority in the Pacific, it would have affected the contributions to the "Euro" theater. Had the Japanese not felt the pressure, they might have give the USSR a two front war.

 

[swampyankee]

In Europe, I think one can argue for the P-51, not just because it was a world-beater (it was very good, but not that good), but because the Luftwaffe knew that a dangerous, high-performance fighter, as good as anything they had with pistons, would be guarding insane numbers of bombers on every raid into Germany. Handwriting, meet wall.

 

[Schweik]

How did the P-51 change the tide? Were the Germans winning when it was introduced?

 

[swampyankee]

How did the P-51 change the tide? Were the Germans winning when it was introduced?

They may not have been winning -- that ended when they were beaten at Stalingrad -- but they weren't losing fast enough.

 

[ykickamoocow]

In Europe, I think one can argue for the P-51, not just because it was a world-beater (it was very good, but not that good), but because the Luftwaffe knew that a dangerous, high-performance fighter, as good as anything they had with pistons, would be guarding insane numbers of bombers on every raid into Germany. Handwriting, meet wall.

Defeat for the Germans was essentially inevitable by the time the P-51 was introduced.

I generally speaking think that whatever the answer to the thread title is, the plane (at least in Europe) had to have been fighting and making a big impact by 1943 at the latest. If it was introduced in 1944 then it should be eliminated from the discussion straight away.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

This is mostly true, however the bit about massive bombing campaigns using Lancasters before the USAF turned up in force with the B-17's needs a little clarification. The British only built 693 Lancasters in 1942. They used Lancasters in large number of raids in 1942 but the large numbers of aircraft per raid were made up of other bombers than the Lancaster.

The Americans don't show up to bomb Germany until Jan of 1943 (they did bomb targets in france and low countries in late 1942) so the British do beat them on that score no matter how many or how few Lancasters were used.

I don't have the production of B-17s by month but they built 512 B-17Es from late 1941 to the end of May 1942 at which point they started building B-17Fs. 3,405 Of the "F"s were built starting at the end of May/beginning of June 1942 and running to July of 1943 at which point production changed to the G. (each of the 3 factories was bit different) It usually took the US several months to get planes form the US factories to combat zones/missions. However even with the diversion of several hundred B-17s to the Pacific (a guess) the US handley out produced the Lancaster with B-17s in 1942/43. Lancasters only became available in truly large numbers in 1944 (1847 built in 1943 and 2933 in 1944) so I guess it depends on what one means buy large numbers and when.
The British built 5428 medium and heavy bombers in 1942 (that includes Albemarles, Hampdens and Warwicks) of which almost exactly half ( 2702) were Wellingtons.
The British did stage a number of large raids or campaigns before the Americans showed up, But the majority of the crews that flew those dangerous missions were flying planes other than Lancasters.

Please note I am not saying anything about how good the Lancaster was, just remarking on the timing.

The Lancaster had become Bomber Commands most numerous bomber by the beginning of 1943. On Jan 16/17 190 of them went to Berlin, on the following night 170 went there. It was certainly out numbering the Wellington by the beginning of the Battle of the Ruhr. On March 11/12 314 of them went to Stuttgart. The B-17 didn't exceed 300 until the beginning of Blitz week when 309 bombed Norway, a pace they were unable to maintain. At the same time as Blitz Week the RAF was destroying a large part of Hamburg sending about 350 Lancasters on each of the 4 raids.
There is a misconception that the 8th Air Force was conducting a significant bombing campaign against Germany in 1943. They weren't. In 1943 the 8th AF dropped 27,598 tons of bombs on Germany in 1944 they dropped 296,839 tons, an order of magnitude greater.
Furthermore the Americans were only nibbling at the edges. The number of deep penetrations into German airspace before Big Week can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. The attached graph from "A History of the VIII USAAF Fighter Command" illustrates this. I have taken the liberty of annotating the raids on Germany and France in different colors as well as adding the start dates for the P-38 and P-51.. It can be clearly seen that the USAAF did not start a serious bombing campaign against Germany until February 1944.

 

[BiffF15]

The Lancaster had become Bomber Commands most numerous bomber by the beginning of 1943. On Jan 16/17 190 of them went to Berlin, on the following night 170 went there. It was certainly out numbering the Wellington by the beginning of the Battle of the Ruhr. On March 11/12 314 of them went to Stuttgart. The B-17 didn't exceed 300 until the beginning of Blitz week when 309 bombed Norway, a pace they were unable to maintain. At the same time as Blitz Week the RAF was destroying a large part of Hamburg sending about 350 Lancasters on each of the 4 raids.
There is a misconception that the 8th Air Force was conducting a significant bombing campaign against Germany in 1943. They weren't. In 1943 the 8th AF dropped 27,598 tons of bombs on Germany in 1944 they dropped 296,839 tons, an order of magnitude greater.
Furthermore the Americans were only nibbling at the edges. The number of deep penetrations into German airspace before Big Week can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. The attached graph from "A History of the VIII USAAF Fighter Command" illustrates this. I have taken the liberty of annotating the raids on Germany and France in different colors as well as adding the start dates for the P-38 and P-51.. It can be clearly seen that the USAAF did not start a serious bombing campaign against Germany until February 1944.

RP,

Do you have the equivalent Bomber Command chart for a comparison?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Shortround6]

On Jan 16/17 190 of them went to Berlin, on the following night 170 went there. It was certainly out numbering the Wellington by the beginning of the Battle of the Ruhr

From Wiki so take it for what you think it is worth.

12/13 March...................Essen

......................... Raid by 457 aircraft - 158 Wellingtons, 156 Lancasters, 91 Halifaxes, 42 Stirlings, 10 Mosquitos on Krupp factory in Essen. 23 aircraft were lost.


granted this is just one raid and granted the Lancaster carried more bombs on average than even the Halifax and Stirling let alone the Wellington.

It took a while for the Lancaster to become the majority of bombers in bomber command. Due to it's range and payload it was doing more than the others on a per plane basis but that is not what we are talking about.

What I was trying to clarify was "massive bombing campaigns using Lancasters before the USAF turned up in force with the B-17's"

Now the words "massive bombing campaigns" and " USAF turned up in force" are certainly subject to interpretation as neither phrase has any numbers.

The British were certainly conducting massive raids (1000 bomber) as parts of a massive campaign well before the US showed up at all. And while they were feeding Lancasters into the MIX as fast as they could these massive campaigns were not using Lancasters in the numbers suggested by the words "massive bombing campaigns using Lancasters" even if those words are technically correct.
17 squadrons had received Lancasters by the end of 1942 and I am not sure if all of those had been declared operational at that time. This is certainly a commendable achievement given that the first operational use of the Lancaster was just over 9 months before. and 7 squadrons had been equipped by some point in June of 1942.

I am not trying to deny the British were first, or were not conducting massive raids (and suffering high casualties from all commonwealth nations) before the US showed up.

The British also showed a large increase in bombs dropped over the years

The RAF certainly did drop more bombs the the USAAF, but giving the bulk of the credit to the Lancaster in 1942/43 rather ignores the Wellington, Halifax and Stirling.

 

[fliger747]

Judging by tons of bombs sprinkled somewhat at random across the darkened German countryside may not be a profitable use of statistics. The evaluation of true contribution towards ending the war (Allied Victory) is quite complex and perhaps not completely possible with many intangibles.

 

[Greyman]

From the Strategic air war against Germany, 1939-1945: Report of British Bombing Survey Unit -

 

[Schweik]

Does available mean flying? I hope they weren't flying missions with Blenheims, Hampdens and Stirlings in mid 1942

There seem to have been a fair number of Fortresses and Liberators operating in The Med in most of 1943 though I'm not sure the precise numbers, I can check after work.

 

[Airframes]

Yes, they were operational, with the Blenheim by then mainly on maritime duties, and the Hampden mine laying. The Stirling continued with main force until late 1943, and then on glider towing, para dropping and special duties until war's end.

 

[Schweik]

I see so a chunk of these 670 bombers weren't really being used as such by then, or at least not on raids into Germany

 

[Greyman]

Looking up the exploits of 2 Group will give a reasonable picture of the what the non-heavies of Bomber Command were up to.

No. 2 Group RAF - Wikipedia

 

[pbehn]

As far as we are wandering off topic with Liberty Ships, part of the issue was solved in the Victory Ships by increasing the frame spacing, making for a more flexible structure and reducing localized stresses. Welding is a very specialized skill and welding of ships and submarines particularly in need of skilled tradesman and excellent QC. Additionally thins was a fairly new technology at the time, still maturing, and with the rush of a "War ON" it's amazing that it worked as well as it did!

.

There were design issues but massive metallurgy issues too. The quality of steels as regards crack propagation, ductile brittle fracture, heat affected zone cracking, through thickness tensile values, temperature transition curves and a huge leap in testing, the Charpy test went from being a little known university research tool to a routine means or testing of welds and parent material while the "Battelle" DWTT test for steel was developed in USA for steel plate. It would be churlish to suggest that the advances in metallurgy were on par with those in jet engines, but they involve the production of hundreds of thousands of tons of steel.

 

[GrauGeist]

Excellent table that shows the Allied bombers, however, I am left wondering why the B-25, B-26, A-26 and A-20 aren't listed.
Also notice that the 9th AF isn't represented, which relocated to England in late 1943.

 

[Navalwarrior]

I think the Spitfire and especially the Hurricane are great pics here. I almost couldn't decide between them and the Dauntless. I decided on the SBD but must admit to a little personal bias as my Grandfather worked at Douglas durring the war and helped build SDBs.

Resp:
Galland told Goering he would take "a squadron of Spitfires" in response to Goering's question, "what do you need to accomplish your mission." So from one German who was there point of view, he named the aircraft that he thought most significant.