The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.

[Venomstick121]

i'm gonna mess with y'all and say the f-94

 

[EwenS]

Was there any reason they didnt turn gently before dropping or turn after the shock wave passed?

To put as much distance as possible between aircraft & explosion as possible, while getting the aircraft fully tail on to the shock wave. The maths explained here.

http://user.xmission.com/~tmathews/b29/155degree/155degreemath.html

 

[special ed]

i'm gonna mess with y'all and say the f-94

A, B, or C model?

 

[NevadaK]

Well, now that we've taken that turn. How about the plane that did the least to alter the outcome of the war: The BA 349 Natter

World War II’s Worst Airplane

The product of an ambitious designer and a doomed regime, the Bachem Ba 349 Natter was a radical idea that almost worked.

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[SaparotRob]

Well, now that we've taken that turn. How about the plane that did the least to alter the outcome of the war: The BA 349 Natter

World War II’s Worst Airplane

The product of an ambitious designer and a doomed regime, the Bachem Ba 349 Natter was a radical idea that almost worked.

www.smithsonianmag.com

Alright! Now we're talking!
SARO Lerwick.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Alright! Now we're talking!
SARO Lerwick.

There's a KISS song in there somewhere.

 

[Warspite63]

Alright! Now we're talking!
SARO Lerwick.

I'll see your Lerwick ...and raise you a .....Blackburn Botha!

 

[GrauGeist]

It's been discussed exhaustively elsewhere on the forum about the Lancaster (or derivatives) being used to deploy the Atom Bomb in Japan.
It simply was not going to happen.

The Lanc was briefly considered while the Thin Man was being developed, but the idea was eliminated quickly and with the end of Thin Man's development, no further consideration was discussed.

The modified Silver Plated B-29 testbed proved that the B-29 was up to the task.

 

[MiTasol]

Alright! Now we're talking!
SARO Lerwick.

I would think the Bv 40 a good contender also.

 

[Elvis]

Hiroshima bomb dropped airspeed 328 mph from 31,000 feet, the B-29 jumped after losing 4 tons, bomb detonated at 1,900 feet, 5.5 miles vertical drop, after 43 seconds, enabling Enola Gay to move about 4 miles. Tibbets stated they were 11.5 miles slant range when the shock wave hit.

What did the shock wave hit? The ground or the Enola Gay?

 

[GrauGeist]

What did the shock wave hit? The ground or the Enola Gay?

Both.

 

[pbehn]

What did the shock wave hit? The ground or the Enola Gay?

Both, first the ground then everything else in its path, in principle it is an expanding sphere of pressure.

 

[RCAFson]

Dammit, now you've got me thinking. The US did not have another type that could carry the atom bombs in 1944/1945, except the B-29. There wasn't another type. The Lancaster was not going to be used by the US armed forces to carry out such an operation. No way in any form of reality. Besides, the atom bombs couldn't have fitted in the Lanc's bomb bay. Yes, the Lanc could carry a big load, but the bomb's shape, specifically Fat Man would have meant it wouldn't fit. weight was probably not the issue as you have pointed out, since the Lanc could carry a significant load, but not without considerable modification and at the expense of range. The Marianas are 1,500 miles from Japan and the B-29 was pressurised for operations at a greater height for better efficiency. I doubt you could get the Lancaster to do it, frankly, although someone with figures to hand might be able to confirm it.



Yeah, that much is true, but the dropping of the bombs brought the war to an end. If that isn't a sea change, or turning of the tide, I don't know what is. The war ended as a result of the dropping of those bombs. That's pretty tide turning. Had they not been dropped, and let me reiterate, there was no other aircraft that the USAAF had that could have, the war would have gone on for longer, that is without dispute.

We've gone over this in the past. The man tasked with finding an A-bomb capable aircraft, Ramsey, consulted with the Lancaster's designer, Roy Chadwick and gave him the specs for the two A-bomb casing dimensions and was assured by Chadwick that both would fit into a Lancaster bomb-bay. see past post:

Was the B-29 Superfortress a Failure?

One further snippet not so far mentioned comes from an article in Aeroplane in Aug 2020 titled “Mission Improbable” was that Ramsey actually met with Roy Chadwick, designer of the Lancaster, to discuss the proposal to use the Lancaster. In Oct 1943 Chadwick was in Canada overseeing Lancaster...

ww2aircraft.net

and there's this:

"Ramsey was assigned to head the Delivery Group of the Ordnance Division and later
served as deputy to Pasion." His immediate tasks were to design the bomb casings that
would carry the gun-assembly bomb and implosion bomb. By the end of 1943 it had
already been established that the gun-type bomb-Thin Man-would weigh on the order
of five tons. Ramsey assumed that the implosion bomb would weigh approximately the
same. Given their size and weight, there were only two possible choices for an aircraft to
deliver the weapons, the British Lancaster or the American B-29, which had begun
production in September.

Ramsey favored the Lancaster and traveled to Canada in early October 1943 to meet Roy
Chadwick, the plane's chief designer, Chadwick was in Canada to observe the initial
Lancasters coming off the production line at the Victory Aircraft Works, Milton Airdrome,
in Toronto. Ramsey showed Chadwick preliminary sketches of the large-thin-shaped and
stubby shaped-bombs and later wrote with more details.(12) Chadwick assured Ramsey that
the Lancaster could accommodate them.

When Ramsey returned, he wrote to Parsons suggesting that the Lancaster be seriously
considered and planned a memo to General Groves recommending that a modified
Lancaster be used.(13)The bomb bay was thirty-three feet long and sixty-one inches wide.
The depth was only thirty-eight inches, but this could be modified. The Lancaster's ceiling
was 27,000 feet, its speed 285 miles per hour, and takeoff required only 3,750 feet of runway
-a critical matter wherever it would be based.
(12). Norman F, Ramsey Jr. to Roy Chadwick, October 23, 1943, Folder Dr. Norman Ramsey, Box 6,
Tolman Files, RG 227/81, NARA.
(13). Memo, N. F, Ramsey to Capt. W. . Parsons, October 14, 1943, Lancaster Aircraft, Folder Dr Norman Ramsey... NARA
" (Norris, pages 316-317 Racing for the Bomb)"

Again, the actual FAT MAN width was 60.25in or less.

The fact that the USAAF staff didn't want to use a Lancaster doesn't mean that it wasn't a-bomb capable.

The Lancaster would have struggled to undertake a Tinian->target-Tinian attack profile as per Enola Gay, but it was capable of a Tinian->target->Okinawa mission as per Bock'sCar.

 

[RCAFson]

Both, first the ground then everything else in its path, in principle it is an expanding sphere of pressure.

Hiroshima bomb dropped airspeed 328 mph from 31,000 feet, the B-29 jumped after losing 4 tons, bomb detonated at 1,900 feet, 5.5 miles vertical drop, after 43 seconds, enabling Enola Gay to move about 4 miles. Tibbets stated they were 11.5 miles slant range when the shock wave hit.

Lincoln production, mark I, 1 in December 1944, 2 in February, 18 in March 1945 and so on, mark II 2 in March, 1 in April, 6 in May 1945 and so on. 24 Lincoln built by end March, 37 by end April, 56 by end May, 75 by end June, 106 by end July, 149 by end August.

According to AIR 8/1363 on 29 November 1945, there were 3 Lincolns in both 44 and 57 squadrons and that was still the case on 14 February 1946, the rest of Bomber Command's heavy bombers were Lancasters.

Bockscar dropped at 28900ft* and used the 50% greater yield Fatman bomb so the idea that the shockwave was an issue is wrong.

*"Sweeney banked his plane sharply and pushed down from his
28,900-foot altitude..."

 

[MiTasol]

Hiroshima bomb dropped airspeed 328 mph from 31,000 feet, the B-29 jumped after losing 4 tons, bomb detonated at 1,900 feet, 5.5 miles vertical drop, after 43 seconds, enabling Enola Gay to move about 4 miles. Tibbets stated they were 11.5 miles slant range when the shock wave hit.

Lincoln production, mark I, 1 in December 1944, 2 in February, 18 in March 1945 and so on, mark II 2 in March, 1 in April, 6 in May 1945 and so on. 24 Lincoln built by end March, 37 by end April, 56 by end May, 75 by end June, 106 by end July, 149 by end August.

According to AIR 8/1363 on 29 November 1945, there were 3 Lincolns in both 44 and 57 squadrons and that was still the case on 14 February 1946, the rest of Bomber Command's heavy bombers were Lancasters.

That makes much more sense than 11.5m when the bomb exploded

 

[pbehn]

Bockscar dropped at ~28500ft and used the 50% greater yield Fatman bomb so the idea that the shockwave was an issue is wrong.

It was an issue when no one had dropped one, whatever a physicist calculates these things have to be put into practice to be sure. If a Mosquito could be damaged by a cookie dropped too low, which I have read happened, then a nuclear bomb needed respect.

 

[RCAFson]

It was an issue when no one had dropped one, whatever a physicist calculates these things have to be put into practice to be sure. If a Mosquito could be damaged by a cookie dropped too low, which I have read happened, then a nuclear bomb needed respect.

Groves:

Studies made at Los Alamos had determined that with a bomb of twenty thousand tons of TNT equivalent, a B-29 plane ten miles away from the burst would be safe from destruction by a factor of two. Under these conditions, the aircraft, which had been designed to withstand a force of four times gravity, would be subjected to a force equivalent to no more than two times gravity. It was calculated that by making a sharp diving turn, the sharpest possible consistent with safety, the B-29 could reach a point at least ten miles from the burst by the time the bomb exploded.

The above was very conservative and certainly an overestimate of blast pressure.

Since over pressure drops off rapidly by distance and given the low pressure at altitude, there was almost no risk to the aircraft. A 20 kiloton airburst at ~2000 ft creates an over pressure of about 1psi at ~3 miles at ground level:

https://nuclearweaponsedproj.mit.edu/nuclear-weapon-effects-simulations-and-models/nuclear-weapons-blast-effects-calculator

 

[33k in the air]

We've gone over this in the past. The man tasked with finding an A-bomb capable aircraft, Ramsey, consulted with the Lancaster's designer, Roy Chadwick and gave him the specs for the two A-bomb casing dimensions and was assured by Chadwick that both would fit into a Lancaster bomb-bay. see past post

Wouldn't the B-32 have been another possibility if circumstances required it?

 

[RCAFson]

Wouldn't the B-32 have been another possibility if circumstances required it?

The B-32 had a number of issues and the 2nd B-32 didn't fly until 2 July 1943 vs 3 Dec 1942 for the B-29. It wasn't till Dec 1944 that the first 5 B-32s were delivered for USAAF testing.

 

[GrauGeist]

According to Sweeny, the bomb was released at 9,600 meters and they were buffeted by 5 shockwaves as they were departing the target area.

9,600 meters as almost 31,500 feet and is consistent with their assigned altitude of 30,000 feet over Kokura.

Not 28,900 feet.