The Battle of Palmdale
- Thread starter wuzak
- Start date
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I read somewhere that the lethal radius of the warhead was 2/3 of the weapon's max range. The one I want to see is the legendary "handgrenuke".
Actually, that is the handgrenuke. Davy Crockett had many names. The idea of creating a weapon that's got a lethal radius that's so close to maximum range seems like glorified suicide
Yes. Sabres were rattling MiGs with Sidewinders. On the ground, heavy artillery on the "channel islands" of Quemoy and Matsu were dueling with batteries on the mainland.
Yes, but these guys were the squadron CO and the Maintenance Officer. These are senior squadron officers, not nugget pilots. They would be significantly older than the young bucks, especially in "peace"time.
Mao threatened to nuke Taiwan at one stage - China got 25 Tu-4s from the Soviets with that in mind, but the nuclear weapons didn't come with the aircraft, thankfully. Soviet pilots flew long range bombing raids against Taiwan in Chinese Tu-4s, the crews being celebrated by the Chinese and given their own apartments and motor vehicles for their services.
Surviving PLAAF Tu-4 re-engined with turboprops at the China Aviation Museum.
Correct, in fact that's one of the two ways that the AIM-9 ended up in the hands of the Soviets -- a MiG-17 got popped popped with an AIM-9 which failed to detonate. The other involved a (Norwegian?) officer selling the blueprints to the Soviets (both are quite possible -- the USSR liked to collect intel from two sources).
Was this threat made in '58?
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Check out the "Second Taiwan Straight Crisis" (yes, there was a first and second crisis) which did occur in 1958.
daveT
Senior Airman
Can we discuss more about the main topic? What is the maximum range of a hellcat? What is the effective range of one of the rockets fired at the drone? Anyone know the serial numbers of the aircraft involved?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Hellcat was a F6F-K5, which when was in active service, had a max. ferry range of 1,530 miles. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the drone was not fueled for maximum distance. The BuNo seems a bit difficult to find, it may be noted on Joe Baugher's site.
I'm not familiar with the Mk.4 FFAR rocket (Mighty Mouse) specs, someone else may be able to provive that.
It was launched from Point Magu NAS around 11:30 a.m. and crashed a while later about 8 miles east of Palmdale airport (PMD) after running out of fuel.
I'm not familiar with the Mk.4 FFAR rocket (Mighty Mouse) specs, someone else may be able to provive that.
It was launched from Point Magu NAS around 11:30 a.m. and crashed a while later about 8 miles east of Palmdale airport (PMD) after running out of fuel.
TheMadPenguin
Senior Airman
We need an emoji for "cringing in horror".
If I recall the range of the rockets typically was around 3400 m / 3718 yd (not sure if that's normal, or maximum effective), and maximum is around 6500 yd.
TheMadPenguin
Senior Airman
Stunned: They didn't have VT fuses in them?
Shortround6
Major General
there were two if not three different rocket motors used over the years in the 2.75 FFAR so be careful you have the correct one for 1956.
1956 is at the very start of the transistor era. They had trouble fitting a VT fuse in a 3in shell.
Wiki "The original Mk 4 FFAR was about 4 ft (1.2 m) long and weighed 18.5 lb (8.4 kg), with a high-explosive warhead of about 6 lb (2.7 kg) "
3in shells went about 12lbs to 17lbs with most being 14-15lbs. If you put a 1956 VT fuse on the rocket you will have a rocket motor and a fuse, no warhead.
later 2.75in rockets got more powerful motors and much heavier, more effective warheads.
1956 is at the very start of the transistor era. They had trouble fitting a VT fuse in a 3in shell.
Wiki "The original Mk 4 FFAR was about 4 ft (1.2 m) long and weighed 18.5 lb (8.4 kg), with a high-explosive warhead of about 6 lb (2.7 kg) "
3in shells went about 12lbs to 17lbs with most being 14-15lbs. If you put a 1956 VT fuse on the rocket you will have a rocket motor and a fuse, no warhead.
later 2.75in rockets got more powerful motors and much heavier, more effective warheads.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
The idea was that salvoing the rockets would make up for their relative inaccuracy. But if the rockets were fired in groups there was too much chance that the prox fuze would detonate due to being too close to another rocket. Plus the Mighty Mouse was intended to be an interim system, helping to keep the interceptor outside the range of radar-controlled defensive guns on the bomber, until guided missiles came of age. What I have read is that the rockets were to be fired at ranges of 500-1500 yds, depending on target aspect and speed. They had 6 lb HE warheads, so if a direct hit was scored there was a pretty good chance of a kill.
Also, it was not intended to be used against fighter sized targets (although that is not an excuse for the failure during the Palmdale incident).
Also, it was not intended to be used against fighter sized targets (although that is not an excuse for the failure during the Palmdale incident).
You would think that if they were shooting at a small, relatively slow moving, but erratic target, they might "bend" doctrine a bit and move in a little closer. (despite the risk from the Hellcat's turret gunners)
If you look at the videos of F89s or F94s salvoing their rockets, you'll notice a certain wobbling of the rockets as they clear the pod and a gradual spreading of the pattern as they fly downrange, sort of like a shotgun, but less pronounced. Okay for a TU4, not so good for an F6F.
Too bad they didn't teach the F-89 pilots the trick of putting their wingtip under the drone's wingtip and flipping it over, like WWII interceptors did with the V-1. Probably wouldn't have worked with an erratically flying drone, but it would have made a fitting end to the story.
Ya know, I don't think I'd try to nudge any flying object with a tip tank full of JP4 and solid fueled rockets. Especially not in a so-called "fighter" that reputedly handles like an overweight UPS truck. I know they were later versions, but I've seen Firebees (flown remotely by enlisted Marines) best Topgun trained F4J pilots in ACM.
TheMadPenguin
Senior Airman
PK of 2: both craft brought down by the contact.
