The Battle of Palmdale

[wuzak]

No cannon or machines guns available on the F-89?

 

[GrauGeist]

Nope, the Scorpion was one of the first types to be solely armed with rockets.

 

[Zipper730]

Combat training doesn't come free.

Agreed, it's still sad that in this case, it was a friendly fire. Usually I would assume training accidents would occur due to mishandling of the aircraft, or a malfunction.

No cannon or machines guns available on the F-89?

When conceived: The design called for 6 x 20mm initially though they'd toyed with using 4 x 20mm in a nose-turret (it sort of wrapped around the radar like a ring goes around your finger), but it was an overcomplicated mess and they went back to 6 x 20mm.

Starting with the F-89D, they had decided to put a new radar that allowed front-beam intercepts: While I'm not sure if the radar and it's associated electronics actually took up so much space that it displaced any of the cannon/ammunition space, or simply was out of a desire to add some extra fuel to the aircraft, but they removed the cannon. The variant was equipped with pods in the tips: They were plumper than before, and still allowed similar fuel capacity (which previously occupied the whole pod, and now was carried in the rear 1/3) with provision for 52 x 2.75" FFAR in the forward 2/3, making for a total for 104 (not 208) rockets which could be fired all at once, or in salvoes.

Technically, they did score a hit or two on the F6F-5K, but it didn't blow the plane up because the warheads didn't go off. While the FFAR's accuracy sucked, against a bomber-sized target, it almost certainly would have seen more hits scored (and, provided they went off, the plane would have been blown apart), though probably requiring multiple passes which would be counterproductive when each bomber has a nuclear-bomb aboard.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The variant was equipped with pods in the tips: They were plumper than before, and still allowed similar fuel capacity (which previously occupied the whole pod, and now was carried in the rear 1/3) with provision for 52 x 2.75" FFAR in the forward 2/3, making for a total for 104 (not 208) rockets which could be fired all at once, or in salvoes

Our Air Guard had F89Ds with this rocket system, but then got designated a mod center and upgraded the entire Air Force/Air Guard inventory of F89Ds to F89Js, removing the "Mighty Mouse" rocket system, upping the fuel capacity of the tip pods, mounting Hughes Falcon missiles on the outsides of them and hanging Genie nuclear tipped AAMs on the wing pylons. This, of course, required completely rewiring the fire control system. Turned an already overweight, under powered airplane into a ground loving lead sled.
In 1964, I was one of a few high school students who were allowed to take regular university summer school courses for advance credit, and a couple of my classmates were Air Guard pilots. One was the squadron maintenance officer, and the other was a really low key, laid back, chatty guy, who I discovered years later, was the squadron commander, and an absolutely lethal opponent in BFM. Both had flown F86s and F100s (REAL fighter jets!), and were not real fans of the F89. "Beats driving a bread truck for a living, but not by much."
They said when they went out to Nellis every year for live fire training with the Mighty Mice, that shooting down B17 drones was satisfying, but the little Firebees were nigh impossible to bag, as few rockets actually hit them, and those that did tended to deflect without detonating.
They were in the middle of the F89J upgrade at the time, and thought it was a waste of the taxpayer's money, as they didn't have much faith in the Falcon, ("All flash and no bang.") and "Who's ever going to give you weapons release for a Genie over CONUS?"
"Just ornamentation to make AF look up to date."
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Nope, the Scorpion was one of the first types to be solely armed with rockets.

The VT Air Guard had P47s, then P51s in the CAS role, then F94s for ADC before the F89s came along, so they were quite familiar with unguided rockets.
One of my university track teammates' father was CO during the P51 days, and said they chafed at the CAS assignment, and spent most of their training hours playing interceptor games. Things were a little more lax back then stateside, as USAF was preoccupied with Korea, and tended to leave the guard alone. They were retiring AT6s from UPT at the time, and tended to park a couple at various local airports for Guard and Reserve pilots to do proficiency flying. ("Free flying time, hot dawg!") And hotdog they did, mostly at 10 feet AGL. I used to mow the lawn at my grandfather's summer cottage, which was between three large farm fields with no poles or wires, and they loved to "strafe" the area. Highly entertaining for an 8 year old, but LOUD! Not popular with the neighbors.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Zipper730]

Our Air Guard had F89Ds with this rocket system, but then got designated a mod center and upgraded the entire Air Force/Air Guard inventory of F89Ds to F89Js, removing the "Mighty Mouse" rocket system, upping the fuel capacity of the tip pods, mounting Hughes Falcon missiles on the outsides of them and hanging Genie nuclear tipped AAMs on the wing pylons. This, of course, required completely rewiring the fire control system.

I thought they put a new radar in to be honest.

In 1964, I was one of a few high school students who were allowed to take regular university summer school courses for advance credit, and a couple of my classmates were Air Guard pilots.

I thought the USAF required you to be 21 to enlist -- or was that a later change (UPT)?

One was the squadron maintenance officer, and the other was a really low key, laid back, chatty guy, who I discovered years later, was the squadron commander, and an absolutely lethal opponent in BFM. Both had flown F86s and F100s (REAL fighter jets!), and were not real fans of the F89. "Beats driving a bread truck for a living, but not by much."

I could understand if they flew the F-86 and F-100, why they'd be unhappy with the F-89.

They said when they went out to Nellis every year for live fire training with the Mighty Mice, that shooting down B17 drones was satisfying, but the little Firebees were nigh impossible to bag, as few rockets actually hit them, and those that did tended to deflect without detonating.

Ouch...

They were in the middle of the F89J upgrade at the time, and thought it was a waste of the taxpayer's money, as they didn't have much faith in the Falcon, ("All flash and no bang.") and "Who's ever going to give you weapons release for a Genie over CONUS?"
"Just ornamentation to make AF look up to date."

I think you were the guy who said there was an attitude that if you didn't have nuclear weapons, you weren't legitimate. Sadly, far as I know, the USAF was fully willing to do so, crazy as that sounds. They even did a test in July of 1957 with people standing 18500' below (all but the cameraman were volunteers) to convince the public that fallout wasn't a real concern (far as I know quite a number of them got cancer).

 

[GrauGeist]

I think you were the guy who said there was an attitude that if you didn't have nuclear weapons, you weren't legitimate.

At the time, the U.S. and Soviet Union were in a quest to find ways to stopping each other in a surgical fashion rather than using a weapon that would rearrange a map.

Small nukes with a yeild large enough to stop an offensive but small enough to allow for occupation of the ground gained was the objective. So small missiles, bombs and even artillery shells were in development.

This "surgical" ideology also applied to nuclear armed torpedoes, too.

 

[Zipper730]

At the time, the U.S. and Soviet Union were in a quest to find ways to stopping each other in a surgical fashion rather than using a weapon that would rearrange a map.

Yes, regarding guided missiles.

Small nukes with a yeild large enough to stop an offensive but small enough to allow for occupation of the ground gained was the objective. So small missiles, bombs and even artillery shells were in development.

This "surgical" ideology also applied to nuclear armed torpedoes, too.

There were also nuclear land-mines. Sounds certifiably nuts, but I guess if you really want to say "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" in a flashy way, that'd do it!

 

[SaparotRob]

Anybody remember the "handgrenuke"?

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, it was the atomic age and nuclear weapons were a natural progression of new threat upgrades.
The Atom weapons used in WWII demonstrated how a single weapon deployed could yeild results comparable to an armada of bombers dropping thousands of conventional weapons on the same target.
The nuclear weapons went in two directions:
Bigger, higher yeild for absolute destruction of the enemy - the downside being not able to occupy (or even get near) the targeted zone for several hundred years.
Smaller to stop an enemy offensive (or select small targets) while still being able to occupy or move past the destroyed target/zone.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed when the realization that the bigger nukes would most likely end civilization and it no longer was "en vogue" to have everything under the sun equipped with nuclear warheads.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I thought they put a new radar in to be honest.

They did. That was part of entire ripout and rewiring of the fire control system. Excuse my Navspeak, but fire control includes the radar. The lead prediction computer is wired right into it in an all-weather fighter.

I thought the USAF required you to be 21 to enlist -- or was that a later change (UPT)?

Huh?? What's USAF got to do with University of Vermont summer school?? UVM was having a problem recruiting high caliber VT students, who were going off to Ivy League schools instead of old "State U". Meanwhile, top students were flocking in from out of state. So they decided to invite some of the top scoring VT high school juniors on the PSAT test to spend the summer before their senior year on campus taking a couple college level courses for credit along with regular university summer school students. I took Intro Geography and European History 1700 - 1960. The guy sitting next to me in Geography said he'd spent a few years as a merchant marine captain, and was familiar with much of the world's coastlines, but wanted to know more about the lands behind them. Later he found out I was interested in aviation, and allowed how he "did some flying from time to time". I asked what kind, and he replied that right now it was F89s, but had done F86s and F100s, as well as assorted training types. We were drinking coffee in the Student Center when a guy from my history class joined us, obviously a fellow aviator, and it turned out he was also a maintenance officer in charge of a part of the J model upgrade program. They were bemoaning the fact that the "young bucks" In the squadron were getting all the flying time ferrying the birds between the mod center here in VT and their home bases, while they were "stuck with the paperwork and getting rusty in the airplane". The maintenance guy kept calling my geography friend "Skipper", which he said was his callsign, due to his nautical background.
Years later, when I was in the Navy, I visited the Air Guard to check out their trainer, which was built by Goodyear, who built mine, and discovered that back in 1964 my friend in geography class was actually CO of the squadron at the time, and was now revered as a "Grey Eagle". That "Skipper" callsign was real!
AFAIK, USAF has always accepted enlistments at age 17, as long as education was complete, and even that was sometimes allowed to slide in times of need. One of my uncles enlisted during the Korean war at 17 with no diploma, but had his Equivalency Certificate by the time he finished training as an airframe electrician.
Nobody enlists in the Air Force to be a pilot. Pilot candidates enter through officer procurement programs, such as AF Academy, AFROTC, OCS, or an enlisted commissioning program (I forget the correct title), where outstanding enlisted personnel with several years experience are sent to college on Uncle's dime to get a degree in a technical field and agree to an extended commitment after commissioning. In practice this doesn't produce many pilots because the time involved often puts graduates over the age limit for UPT.

I think you were the guy who said there was an attitude that if you didn't have nuclear weapons, you weren't legitimate.

It's one thing to have them. To USE them is quite another. J model Scorpions with Genies hanging flew under so many restrictions they were practically impotent. Only birds standing hotpad duty actually hung the Genie, and then only under elevated DEFCON conditions. Classic example of a weapon that's almost more dangerous than the enemy.

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting!

 

[Zipper730]

Anybody remember the "handgrenuke"?

The closest thing I can find is the Davy Crocket. That wasn't a grenade, that was a bazooka. Certifiably nuts if you ask me.

Well, it was the atomic age and nuclear weapons were a natural progression of new threat upgrades.
The Atom weapons used in WWII demonstrated how a single weapon deployed could yeild results comparable to an armada of bombers dropping thousands of conventional weapons on the same target.

I've sometimes taken to calling nuclear bombs "an air-raid in a can".

I'm not sure exactly what the rules were at different points of the cold war regarding nuclear weapons were: Eisenhower seemed to regard the smaller nukes in the same category as Tallboys, Grand-Slams, and Cookies, of WWII (which is horrifying); others saw any nuclear weapon as an escalation to all-out nuclear war (even more horrifying).

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed when the realization that the bigger nukes would most likely end civilization and it no longer was "en vogue" to have everything under the sun equipped with nuclear warheads.

It seemed the first time that people started to get it was in 1962. It might be one of the closest times we got to nuclear war, and 1983 was probably number another period (interestingly, the same year, there was a movie called "The Day After" -- it was aired three days after I was born).

 

[Zipper730]

They did. That was part of entire ripout and rewiring of the fire control system.

Oh, okay

Huh?? What's USAF got to do with University of Vermont summer school?? UVM was having a problem recruiting high caliber VT students, who were going off to Ivy League schools instead of old "State U". Meanwhile, top students were flocking in from out of state. So they decided to invite some of the top scoring high school juniors on the PSAT test to spend the summer before their senior year on campus taking a couple college level courses for credit along with regular university summer school students. I took Intro Geography and European History 1700 - 1960.

That's pretty cool. Sadly, people these days are pretty bad with geography. Honestly, it's kind of sad that, in 2020, we have people less literate in geography than people in 1964.

The guy sitting next to me in Geography said he'd spent a few years as a merchant marine captain, and was familiar with much of the world's coastlines, but wanted to know more about the lands behind them. Later he found out I was interested in aviation, and allowed how he "did some flying from time to time". I asked what kind, and he replied that right now it was F89s, but had done F86s and F100s, as well as assorted training types. . . . Years later, when I was in the Navy, I visited the Air Guard to check out their trainer, which was built by Goodyear, who built mine, and discovered that back in 1964 my friend in geography class was actually CO of the squadron at the time, and was now revered as a "Grey Eagle". That "Skipper" callsign was real!

Okay, I understand. As for the enlistment thing, I knew that, they allowed enlistments at 17, but you said you had some friends who were ANG pilots, so I figured they'd have to be around 21.

It's one thing to have them. To USE them is quite another.

Yeah, but there was a case in October, 1962 (Cuban Missile Crisis) where a U-2 ended up making a navigation error and ending up in Soviet airspace. F-102's were launched to protect it from attacks, and were armed with GAR-11's and were given authorization to arm and use them. It's kind of amazing how many nuclear close calls occurred during that time period.

 

[GrauGeist]

Eisenhower also called Mao to the carpet over Taiwan. The prospect of them being nuked was a large part of Mao's decision to leave Taiwan alone.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

That's pretty cool. Sadly, people these days are pretty bad with geography. Honestly, it's kind of sad that, in 2020, we have people less literate in geography than people in 1964.

They don't teach "geography" any more. It's rolled up with history, civics, sociology, diversity studies, women's studies, and anything else you can think of into a neat little package called "social studies", that leaves more time to focus on STEM subjects.

you said you had some friends who were ANG pilots, so I figured they'd have to be around 21.

1964 was not 1944. The 21 year old fighter pilot was a thing of the past by then. The cadet program was on its way out, as the emphasis was on bachelor's degree college graduates. And except for the very limited enlisted science education program, there was no pathway for enlisted folk to become pilots. No, these guys were old timers who were in UPT before the Korean War began. They both finished their active commitments in the mid 50s and went on to other things, while bouncing in and out of various Guard units. They were closing in on forty years old, but looked like late twenties. BTW, they both had the AT6 as their PRIMARY trainer, soloed in it, and lost over half their classes to accidents and washouts. "Got real used to funerals." They both came to Vermont because they could get full time Air Guard jobs in a unit that had a strong reputation.

 

[Zipper730]

They don't teach "geography" any more. It's rolled up with history, civics, sociology, diversity studies, women's studies, and anything else you can think of into a neat little package called "social studies", that leaves more time to focus on STEM subjects.

Yeah the humanities often are eroded because they teach people what you should do, where STEM just tells you what you can do.

That said, there are some people who think the world's flat, that would undermine one's knowledge of scientific literacy (such as concepts as gravity, orbital mechanics) -- I think more are trolls than otherwise, but I can't really tell online.

1964 was not 1944. The 21 year old fighter pilot was a thing of the past by then. The cadet program was on its way out, as the emphasis was on bachelor's degree college graduates. And except for the very limited enlisted science education program, there was no pathway for enlisted folk to become pilots.

No, I meant the entry age, not when you got your wings. Generally people complete college around 21-22 years of age. From joining to the completion of flight-training seems to be around 1-1/2 years, so you'd be around 23-24 years of age.

Nonetheless, I understand what you were getting at -- I got mixed up with exactly when what happened when.

 

[Zipper730]

Eisenhower also called Mao to the carpet over Taiwan. The prospect of them being nuked was a large part of Mao's decision to leave Taiwan alone.

That was 1958 right?

 

[GrauGeist]

That was 1958 right?

Yes, during the Taiwan Straights Crisis.
It wasn't a first option even if China invaded, but he let it be known that it would be inevitable if Mao didn't settle down.

Something along the lines of: "if the People's Republic of China wishes to continue existing..."

 

[SaparotRob]

How would communist China invade Taiwan (Formosa then?) in 1958? That's got to be tougher than crossing the English Channel. Was it just Sabre rattling?