The Best Assault Rifle.

[drgondog]

Bill, you're using American commercial ammunition thats why. American 8x57mm loads are grossly underloaded, go buy some fullpower European ammunition.

Go to reloadersnest.com, they've got some good handloads you can try.

In strong actions the 8x57mm IS can be safely loaded up to 58 - 60,000 psi MAP, the same or slightly more than the 30.06.

A 154gr bullet in the 7.92x57mm IS will be driven up to 3,000 + fps, and 200gr bullets will do up to 2,700+ fps.

Here's some hot loads you can try (All 56,000 psi MAP or less):
Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser

The Germans themselves back in WWII used uploaded types of 7.92x57mm ammunition, mostly for use in aircraft guns, although snipers "Borrowed" them for an extra 150m of effective range. These rounds were designated "V-patronen", the V stood for Improved and drove the std. 12.8g (198gr) sS projectile to 868 m/s (2850 fps).

154gr 7.92x57mm Turkish Surplus ammunition does around 2,950 fps on average in the Gewehr 98.

As to what I meant with drive force, well thats the amount of force the cartridge can get out of a bullet at different weights - the 8x57mm cartridge has a larger surface area to push on, leading to better acceleration with different bullet weights. The higher the bullet density the lower the acceleration decceleration and vice versa.

PS: Drive force isn't a general term in the gun world, hence why you haven't heard it before.

First - what possible source could you be referring to to state with a straight face that the 8mm can be loaded to same or higher pressures as the 30-06"

I'll pick two actions - and FN600 and a M700 Remington. Show me a relaible source (any one will do for starters) that has tested these two in a statistically meaningful manner which supports this interesting statement? Same Brass, primers and bullet weight - vary the powder to achieve relative burn rates

Second - the greater diameter of the 8mm WILL enable a higher velocity somewhere in the middle range of bullet weights like 180-198gr but doesn't at the lower range.

Here is a factory 30-06 - one of the world famous 'light loads' so disdained by 8x57JS lovers - MV= 3,100 fps which is higher than your reload 8mm. Find a factory load in 8mm that is faster?

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=85199

we can one-up each other on re-loads if you wish. I have both my eyes and all my fingers because I do pay attention to pressure signs. I have a couple of actions that individually (not in ANY way recommended by Mfr) that are probably capable of 70K psi but I'm not going there just to chase hot reloads.

You may seek any reload data you wish. I noticed your source mentioned 56K (+) so you perhaps overlooked a little bit what the max pressure was or could be for those loads - I would be suspicious of the "+" as well as pulling a load from a website.

I'll stick with Nosler 5th Edition and Hogdon, Speer and Barnes because the loads are all lab tested - and in some cases with some rifles I have seen some pressure signs even with these

On the factory loads I was quoting to you for the 8x57JS I used Norma and RW which I believe are still made 'somewhere in Europe"?? Both were hotter than Remington and Hornady factory rounds.

Here is another factory load for 165Gr 30-06 at 2802fps

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=85159

I noticed that the Max load tested by Nosler #5, for 8mmx57JS, for the 180gr NBT was 49.0 gr Varget at 2669fps w/24"bbl

The Nosler max load for 30-06 was 2872fps for 24" for the 180gr NBT using 61 gr RL22 - hotter than the Hornady Light Mag and way hotter than the fastest reload in Nosler (only this example). This is my personal Elk load when I'm not using the 338-06 w/225gr accubond

As to "drive force" (your first reason for using that phrase was to 'demonstrate' why the 8mm kicked more...) that doesn't float as far as recoil is concerned - the recoil force is still 1/2 MV>2 until you show me the math on some nebulous pressure distribution that proves that the 30-06 bullet
accelerates much slower initially then picks up velocity much faster

Regards,

Bill

 

[Soren]

You just want to argue Bill, I get it ! There's nothing to argue about though cause the 8x57mm JS is faster than the 30.06 - esp. with heavier rounds. I'd like you to show me any 30.06 load that drives a 198gr bullet to 2,850 fps like the 8x57mm can please ! And mind you this was a load used operationally by the Germans ! But still don't get started about lab testing, its as good as any testing done by yourself, so your mentioning of it is completely and utterly pointless.

Turkish 154gr 8x57mm surplus ammunition will on average do 2,950 fps in the Gewehr 98, with no pressure signs what so ever. 3,100 isn't an anomaly with Turkish 154gr ball either, and still no pressure signs.

And here's a recipe for how to drive a 200gr Sierra Match king bullet to ~2,700 fps in the 8x57mm JS: Load 10023 detail in caliber 8x57 JS

As to recoil, well recoil rises with KE or momentum, they're directly connected - the bigger the KE at the muzzle, the bigger the recoil = Newtons law. Drive force = max possible MV with x bullet mass. The higher possible MV with x bullet mass the higher the recoil.

PS: I have never found any of the loads that I've acquired from the reloading sites to be much off or at all dangerous so again you made a completely pointless remark.

 

[drgondog]

You just want to argue Bill, I get it ! There's nothing to argue about though cause the 8x57mm JS is faster than the 30.06 - esp. with heavier rounds. I'd like you to show me any 30.06 load that drives a 198gr bullet to 2,850 fps like the 8x57mm can please ! And mind you this was a load used operationally by the Germans ! But still don't get started about lab testing, its as good as any testing done by yourself, so your mentioning of it is completely and utterly pointless.

Turkish 154gr 8x57mm surplus ammunition will on average do 2,950 fps in the Gewehr 98, with no pressure signs what so ever. 3,100 isn't an anomaly with Turkish 154gr ball either, and still no pressure signs.

And here's a recipe for how to drive a 200gr Sierra Match king bullet to ~2,700 fps in the 8x57mm JS: Load 10023 detail in caliber 8x57 JS

As to recoil, well recoil rises with KE or momentum, they're directly connected - the bigger the KE at the muzzle, the bigger the recoil = Newtons law. Drive force = max possible MV with x bullet mass. The higher possible MV with x bullet mass the higher the recoil.

PS: I have never found any of the loads that I've acquired from the reloading sites to be much off or at all dangerous so again you made a completely pointless remark.

To your last statement - How would you KNOW whether they were dangerous? Have you ever used strain gauges on a rifle? I HAVE, as well as chronograph closely when I work up to max loads - neither sufficient unto themselves to guarantee safety but far better that 'spray and pray'. Do you spray and pray?

Simply stated, and repeated once again, the 30-06 is faster with the 150 and 165 and the 8x56JS is faster in 190 and above. They are both close in the 170-180gr range.

And no, 2950 avg is NOT the same as 3100fps!!! Not in my world and probably not in Czech world - can't comment on German world or the world you live in? Which world do you live in?.

Recoil may 'rise' with mass x Velocity but what we have been talking about is Force which by the way is how you measure RECOIL - IT ain't MOMENTUM - it is FORCE.. Force equal mass x Acceleration - NOT mass x velocity. The KE of 30-06 with 150gr > KE of 8x57JS because the Mass is the same and the Velocity is greater for the 06 betweeen the two loads.

RECOIL FORCE = 1/2x mass x (VELOCITY)squared ----->not MV in the case of rifle ballistics. If we were talking about Gyrojet rocket rounds from the 60's in which we had a round that was constantly accelerating then it would be F=Ma at the point it left the barrel

If you have a FACTORY load which is greater than the Hornady load - post it... but for simple people like me don't try to imply that a Czech load at 2950 is faster than the Hornady Light Mag load at 3100. I did my best counting toes, ears and fingers (plus other appendages) and I still can't reconcile your supercilious statements>

I am to take from your avatar that you have some link to being a sniper - and I give you benefit of the doubt that a.) you do reload and b.) you know something about ballistics. But.......

People will think You are arguing for arguing sake.

Go back to any post I have made and see for yourself - I have NEVER CLAIMED THAT A 30-06 with 190gr and above can be LOADED SAFELY FASTER THAN A 190 gr (OR ABOVE) load AT SAFE PRESSURES THAN AN 8x57JS. I have maintained and CONTINUE to maintain that the 30-06 is faster across the board than the 8x57JS for equivalent pressures for rounds equal to or under 165Gr.

I will also tell you that necking up a 30-06 to 338 will overshadow the 8x57JS at 200gr and above - we can now dabble in the effect of "Drive Force" and show simply that the greater case capacity of the 30-06 will have a difference when you step up to 8mm or .338 - but that isn't our argument

I HAVE ZERO idea what your background is but on one hand you sound knowledgeable and the next you make some silly statements about Physics and Engineering.

If you don't compare pressures then you aren't working to a common benchmark of FACT based discussion. People Get KILLED F@#@#$king around with maz/overmax loads

But, since you don't want to play in that sandbox let's jo go to what you can buy in Germany or America

FACT - 30-06 in a PUBLISHED factory max load is 3,100 fps. Hornady Light Mag is what I postulate

FACT - the best 8x57JS published load you have shown for a rifle is 2950 fps as best in Czech military ball load. Get a faster load

FACT - both the RECOIL and MOMENTUM in a same action and same weight rifle firing both rounds will experience MORE RECOIL and MOmentum in the 30-06 at THAT Muzzle Velocity.

FACT - the 8x57JS in 198gr in FACTORY will exceed a 190 or 200 gr FACTORY 30-06 in both Momentum AND Recoil Force for the publishedd maximum 8x57JS facory ammo.

IF you consider this arguing "just to make an argument" - then I stand guilty as charged!

Having said that I really want to know what engineering and ballistics expertise you bring to this argument. At one moment you sound intelligent and fact based and others you sound ?? but not fact based in your arguments. Tell me at least that you have at least a BS degree in Aerodynamics or Performance for your arguments in that field - or have a long base of experience in ballistics.

Regards,

Bill

 

[lesofprimus]

Recoil may 'rise' with mass x Velocity but what we have been talking about is Force which by the way is how you measure RECOIL - IT ain't MOMENTUM - it is FORCE.. Force equal mass x Acceleration - NOT mass x velocity. The KE of 30-06 with 150gr > KE of 8x57JS because the Mass is the same and the Velocity is greater for the 06 betweeen the two loads.

I agree 100% with Bill on that one...

I am to take from your avatar that you have some link to being a sniper - and I give you benefit of the doubt

Actually, its his signature that shows the sniper, his avatar is of the Ta 152H....

If you don't compare pressures then you aren't working to a common benchmark of FACT based discussion. People Get KILLED F@#@#$king around with maz/overmax loads

And I know a couple of fellas that only have 9 and 8 digits because of this...

 

[Soren]

I have plenty of experience with ballistics, I've been shooting firearms since I was a boy and I've been in the military for over 20 years straight. I'm not a gun expert but I know my fair share on the subject, and to be honest I think your knowledge on the subject is lacking in some areas Bill.

First of all its TURKISH ball ammunition, not Czech, and like I said it'll do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98 (740 mm barrel). So in my experience the 8x57mm JS round is as fast or faster than the 30-06 with different weight bullets, with heigher weight bullets the 8x57mm is always markedly faster.

And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

As to my "Degree" in aerodynamics, well I'm an educated engineer and have been studying this field for a long long time now and I'd say I know all the basics, alot of the complex and alot more - am I an expert in the field ? No, I'd need alot more experience with the modern aerodynamics programs of today and there are still some complex characteristics I need to learn about. But since you asked what statements about aerodynamics of mine is it you find to be incorrect ?

 

[drgondog]

I have plenty of experience with ballistics, I've been shooting firearms since I was a boy and I've been in the military for over 20 years straight. I'm not a gun expert but I know my fair share on the subject, and to be honest I think your knowledge on the subject is lacking in some areas Bill.

First of all its TURKISH ball ammunition, not Czech, and like I said it'll do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98 (740 mm barrel). So in my experience the 8x57mm JS round is as fast or faster than the 30-06 with different weight bullets, with heigher weight bullets the 8x57mm is always markedly faster.

And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

As to my "Degree" in aerodynamics, well I'm an educated engineer and have been studying this field for a long long time now and I'd say I know all the basics, alot of the complex and alot more - am I an expert in the field ? No, I'd need alot more experience with the modern aerodynamics programs of today and there are still some complex characteristics I need to learn about. But since you asked what statements about aerodynamics of mine is it you find to be incorrect ?

Soren - are you by chance, with your 20+ years of gun expertise, aware of the effect of longer barrels on velocity?

And based on that knowledge you would state that TURK (or any nationstate you choose) 8x57JS 154 gr ammunition will get within 150fps of the loads I cited? With 24 inch barrel?

I set the foundation for a rational argument by citing velocities for a 24" barrel and you come back to me with ballistics for a 740mm (`29") barrel??? which should yield 35-50fps increment for each extra inch of length?

And then you describe me as anal when I delineate the difference between Force and Momentum?

Do the math for ballistics between Force and Kinetic Energy

F= 1/2x Mx (V)>2 and you say that is the same as MxV ?

So, using your engineering background 1/2 x M x(V) squared = M x V?

next step : divide both sides of equation by M yielding

1/2 (V)squared = V??----> "And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil."

Fact - the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

NOT Fact - "We're saying the exact same thing"

In my world one half of Velocity squared is not the same as Velocity

Soren - you are a smart guy and don't have to resort to trickery to win an argument - just stick to the facts and jump me when I don't have facts, I can actually learn even at my age.. but you tried to slip one through with the 740 mm barrel length when we were talking pure and verifyable ballistics of two separate cartriges for same boundary conditions.

As to your aero knowledge, you don't make many mistakes that I can see but every once in awhile a few 'clankers' resonate which caused me to ask the question. And don't get me wrong - I've been out of the performance and strucures biz for 30 years and only in aerodynamics for two years.

Like you I am not prepared to dive into an in-depth discussion of hypersonic boundary layer separation using Chaos Theory - not at the real and practical level.

Last but not least, depending on your definition of Expert - I may be one, or not depending on your point of view. If the definition is fire and field strip every military firearm in use today - nope.. last count is six. I have never set the headspace on a Ma Duece or any light/heavy machine gun of any type.

If the definition is ballistics, propellants reloading and the ability to field strip about any modern commercial firearm - yes by experience or ability to find it in my reference library if I haven't seen it before. I build my own stocks - both from straight blank and semi-inletted - rifle and shotgun, including sidelocks. I can re-barrel and headspace a new barrel and used to have a lathe which I used to thread and turn barrel blanks or use to take up some threads after re-chambering for some nebulous wild cat.

I shot Expert in pistol and rifle and ranked as lifetime NRA Master in International Skeet. (I can't SHOOT Master anymore - I'm too old and slow) I have competed and competed well in both Columbaire and Box Flyers domestically and internationally, winning seven HOA in major shoots of 3 days or more in places like Guadalajara, Dallas and Madrid. I have hunted big game and birds on four continents. This is not bragging - there are many better shooters than me, but this is my qualification resume to discuss any of the above subjects intelligently with you

I know more about all of these subjects than most people - but I might not meet your standards for expertise and we can leave it at that.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Soren]

Listen lets bury the Hatchet here Bill, I think we're coming to agreement in the end anyways.

This whole argument started because we BOTH were nitpicking, you might as-well admit it - and yes I know I do it sometimes myself I admit, and I think everybody here on the forum knows it as-well.

I didn't try to sneak anything passed you Bill, I made clear from the start that that the Turkish factory milsurp ammo would do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98. And yes I know what effect the barrel lenght mostly has on velocity with rifle-rounds and bigger, but even with a 600mm barrel it isn't hard to reach 3,100 fps with the 154gr Turkish stuff, it really isn't.

Firing the 7.92mm 12.8 gram sS FMJ-BT projectile in the 8x57 IS at 785 m/s is only utilizing 69 - 70% of the cartridge's pressure potential.

About the 30-06 being faster with light bullets, well you might be right, 3,200 fps is faster than any 7.92x57mm round I've shot through a 60cm barrel so far - I've come very close though.

 

[drgondog]

nuff said -hoist one for the nit pickers - Prosit

Regards,

Bill

 

[SoD Stitch]

Dunno if anyone's already put this one forward (probably; it would take me an hour to read this whole thread), but what about the M4? Weapon of choice for US Special Forces and the D boys, easier to handle than a -16, and mostly steel. Almost as accurate as a -16A2, just as accurate at short range.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well as a former US Army soldier who has used the M4 and fired the AK on many occasions I can say the AK is much better.

Give me an AK or a G-36.

 

[MacArther]

DerAlder, what are your thoughts on the X8 assault rifle that will someday replace something else?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I honestly dont have an oppinion on it. I think more testing is required on it but it should be an excellent weapon when it is fielded.