The Best Single Air-to-Air Weapon of the War?

I agree the MK108 was the premier anti-bomber weapon of the war. At the same time, it was very poor for fighter vs. fighter combat. The round starts flight at 1.5 mach and drops to sub-sonic flight before reaching 350 meters. Also the gun was prone to jamming and could not be fired under even mild G loads. It was ideal for frontal passes against heavy bomber formations, where velocity is not critical, and its 600 rpm RoF (impressive for a 30mm gun) was sufficent to ensure a high probability of scoring some hits.

2-5 hits (remember 1 in 4 rounds were duds) scored between the wing root and inboard engine assured a kill against a B-17, fewer hits were needed against a B-24. However, even this was not considered sufficent and a hydrostatically fused incendiary round with an AP cap was developed, which would only detonate when immersed in liquid. One such incendiary round to a fuel tank ensured destruction of the target.

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Lunatic

according to official sources from Germany which I own it was 1-3 hits needed to bring down a Viermot. Applications of the 3cm in the Fw 190A-7/MK a/c were from the front in april/may of 44 but the frontal attack speeds were to fast for proper aiming plus running through the debris which was a huge concern by JG 1 and JG 11. Rear attacks were already drawn up by the small but successful Sturmstaffel 1 in their A-7's but few and I mean very few a/c had the 3cm mk 108 installed. Bf 110G-2's of ZG 26 and ZG 76 were already using the 3cm with replacements by MG 151/20's in their rear and side attacks. It was forbidden to attack US bombers from the front. In the summer of 44 -- July all concentrated attacks were to be from the rear so that the 2cm and 3cm weapons could come to bear on the tail section/gunner first and then up and down the fuselage either side or as Lune has mentioned in the wing root and inboard engines of the 4 engine bomber. It was also found in the Sturm attacks with 3cm that both engines on the one side of the a/c if knocked out would cause the bomber to heal over one side spinning out of control.

a note CB, the Me 262 was also fitted with a connector for either all four or just two of the 3cm Mk 108's to be fired in the Me 262. Night fighter pilots of Kommando Welter often times only needed just two Mk 108's to fire with few rounds of course to tear apart the Mossies of LSNF at night.

E ~

I think that the first victim of 262s was a Mosquito PR.

Many of the kills of the Me-262 in the late moths of war where fighters, as we already say is not suitable in doghfith but I can imagine a brief burst against a P-51 with his droptanks on, and then full trottle to escape.

The giroscopic gunsigth sure make this work easier.

latter months JG 7 fought with Soviet a/c and also many stupid ground attack missions with Panzerschreck headed R4M missiles which made ugly work of Soviet Flak turcks and motor transport as well as parked Soviet a/c on grass fields...........

CharlesBronson said:

I think that the first victim of 262s was a Mosquito PR.

Many of the kills of the Me-262 in the late moths of war where fighters, as we already say is not suitable in doghfith but I can imagine a brief burst against a P-51 with his droptanks on, and then full trottle to escape.

The giroscopic gunsigth sure make this work easier.

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I understand that the EG42 gyro gunsight was 'locked' since there was problems with it. Erich should be able to confirm this.

not sure about that but there was a new experimental EG 42-40 used by the SturmFw 190's of II./Sturm/JG 300 with devastating results. I hvae a copy of the original manuscripts tested by the Sturm unit.

CharlesBronson said:

I think that the first victim of 262s was a Mosquito PR.

Many of the kills of the Me-262 in the late moths of war where fighters, as we already say is not suitable in doghfith but I can imagine a brief burst against a P-51 with his droptanks on, and then full trottle to escape.

The giroscopic gunsigth sure make this work easier.

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The German's never had a working gyro gunsite. The Me262 had the Revi-16 reflector sight, which was not a gyro computing gunsight.

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Lunatic

incorrect the gunsight I speak of was not the Revi 16, and I will find the documentation and post once found. As for the me 262 I think you maybe correct as I have seen the item installed in a 262, so yes in that effect you are correct.

confused yet ?

Erich said:

according to official sources from Germany which I own it was 1-3 hits needed to bring down a Viermot.

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...
The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.
...
...
Later in the war, the Germans introduced the Mk 108 30mm heavy cannon capable of firing 600 11-ounce high explosive rounds per minute. Three hits with this weapon were usually sufficient to bring down a Flying Fortress. On the other hand it was a low velocity weapon and its effective range was shorter than the 20-mm cannon forcing German pilots to fly even closer to get hits.
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

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Just 3 to 4 shells placed at the in-board engine and wing root would be enough to destroy a Viermot.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html

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Note this last source is from direct interviews with German Sturmgruppe pilots - a project intended to lead to a book, but which is now on hold It is well worth searching through and reading various pilot accounts and interviews. Because the site is in disrepair you cannot find anything through the home page. Here are some links to help you navigate it's lower hierachy:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/sturmstaffel.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/sturmjaegerthemen.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/grossenmordens.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/kassel.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/mombeekextract.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/sturmgruppenactions.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/oschersleben.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/SturmgruppeDahl.html

Other sub pages can be found through these links.

Anyway, the point is that I've read through many pilot accounts and documents, and while I agree 1-3 was published in some documents as the official estimate of the number of 30mm hits required, 2-5 well placed hits against the B-17, 1-4 against the B-24, seems to be the consistant pilot opinion. I believe official estimates were made under the assumption that every round would work perfectly, when in fact about 25% were duds.

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Lunatic

Erich said:

incorrect the gunsight I speak of was not the Revi 16, and I will find the documentation and post once found. As for the me 262 I think you maybe correct as I have seen the item installed in a 262, so yes in that effect you are correct.

confused yet ?

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The German computing gunsight was the Askania EZ42. It was never developed to the point of useability and where depolyed (in a few 262's and late model 190's and maybe Ta's) it was used as a reflector sight. Askania's specialty was autopilot systems, not gunsights. Because of their experiance with gyro's, they got the captured Ferranti's (aka: K-14's) and tried to copy them.

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Lunatic

Wasn't the K-14 devloped from a British gunsight?

KraziKanuK said:

Wasn't the K-14 devloped from a British gunsight?

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Yes, it is just an American made Ferranti (Mk.4 I believe), as noted above. There were actually several models, but all USAAF models were designated K-14, where the USN models were the MK.18.

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Lunatic

I bring this from "P-47 movie" topic.

I think that we are talking about the standar steel core M2 API.
The M-8 with his Tugsten-steel alloy core and heavier weight sure can defeat most of the armor.



In the images I have from german fighters losing wings there is no much debris fling and suddenly you see a blast wich cause an severe estructural damage. As we all know the .50 carry no explosives, so I am pretty much sure that is an internal explosion that caused the break.

To make my point I compilated some guncams showing exactly this, FW-190 attacked by a "trigger happy" allied pilot, no real damage can be apreciated until.....BOOOM...A .50 API hit the rigth point, and good bye Wurger.

Run it with divx please.

Lune you have made links from my "OLD" web-site I see...........and yes the book will be published

yep 1-3 hits according to tests.............. 3/4 rounds in reality on Sturm ops. Gents the links provided I particpated in several personal interviews through letter and telephone calls with those same Sturm pilots. the 3cm was wicked deadly at close range with some pilots getting in as close as 30 yards before somehow banking away before colliding with the bombers. they never have said whether a B-24 or B-17 was the easiest to knock down with fewer rounds. Only the "black men" could count the amolunt of rounds used to determine just what was used via 2cm and 3cm rounds. also depended on the angle of attack from the rear. I have a gun cam cine film that shows an Fw attacking two B-17's the German pilot attacks the nearest bomber and knocks out the tail gunner and then overshoots on purpose the further B-17 with his 2cm wepaons and rakes the heavy over pretty well before he goes back to the closest a/c and nearly blows the tail off with his rounds, hitting the right side two engines causing several fires and then banks away. 2 confirmed kills for this pilot ? who knows.

Lune hope you enjoyed the links as it was the basis for several articles that Neil and I put together and a redone web-site which has only partially happened. Several of those pilots have since died and sadly there were many more questions to ask by alas remain unanswered.....the last 15 years of interviews has been most interesting and I feel fortunate enough to have spoken to many.

v/r E ~

Erich said:

Lune you have made links from my "OLD" web-site I see...........and yes the book will be published

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LOL



Lunatic

CharlesBronson said:

I bring this from "P-47 movie" topic.

I think that we are talking about the standar steel core M2 API.
The M-8 with his Tugsten-steel alloy core and heavier weight sure can defeat most of the armor.



In the images I have from german fighters losing wings there is no much debris fling and suddenly you see a blast wich cause an severe estructural damage. As we all know the .50 carry no explosives, so I am pretty much sure that is an internal explosion that caused the break.

To make my point I compilated some guncams showing exactly this, FW-190 attacked by a "trigger happy" allied pilot, no real damage can be apreciated until.....BOOOM...A .50 API hit the rigth point, and good bye Wurger.

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Here is the data for the .50 BMG rounds from the TM43 manual:







It is interesting to note that performance figures are almost always for the BALL round, which was a few grams heavier than the Incendiary or API rounds and had a little less initial velocity, but overall the BMG rounds are all very close in weight (~45 to ~49 grams), except the M23 "jet killer" incendiary which was down around 35 grams (of even more potent IM28). The M1 incendiary round carried 2.2 grams of IM11, the M8 API round carried between 1 and 1.5 grams of IM11 depending on the year (late war M8's used moly-steel penetrators to save tungston and thus had less room for IM11).

IM11 incendiary metal alloy was and is a very nasty substance (it is still used today). When the round strikes the target, usually on the next contact after passing through typical aluminum skinning, the alloy achieves sufficient heat through compression to ignite. Because the Barium Nitrate in the alloy is a very strong oxidizer, there is no need for external oxygen and the IM will all fire up at once, creating a low-order explosion (more like confined gunpowder than high explosives). Between this low-order explosion and the force of the penetrator (or "slug") comming in behind the round, the buring incendiary metal is spewed to the sides, perpendicular to the axis of flight, mostly on the near side as it passes through the structure.

IM11 burns at over 4000 degrees F, hot enough to liquify aluminum on contact. Furthermore, this heat plus the excess O2 from the degenerating Barium Nitrate will cause the target aluminum to burn. It is not necessary for the round to completely breach the target structure though impact damage. When the round strikes the spar of a FW wing for instance, which is aluminum, it will create a .5 inch hole from impact. It will also create a considerable region around the hole which is very hot from the impact/penetration and the IM11 incendiary, and this in turn is ripe to burn, and the spar will become soft for a good radius around that. The spar can easily collapse as a result of .50 API hits.

.50 rounds were not technically "high explosive", but the incendiary metal did "burst" and imparted significant additional damage even to metal structures. The high quality of .50 ammunition was one of the reasons the USA felt it was sufficent to the task and did not focus on replacing it with a larger gun during WWII. No other country was able to mass produce such an incendiary metal alloy. Britain did manage to produce a similar alloy for their DeWilde .303 rounds, but in much smaller amounts, and the DeWilde rounds were always in short supply.

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Lunatic

I am making you work, good post.

Here some damage pics. This is a 20mm HE-T Mauser hit in a Spitfire.



Although not suitable for dogfigthing this is what happen wen you hit a Spit with a 30 mm RB Mine-shell.

Notice that the 20mm hit on the Spitfire made a big hole on the skin but did little meaningful damage. That is the problem with surface detonations. Had that been a Hispano, it would probably have killed the plane.

That image of a 30mm hit is a well known shot of a ground test where the cannon was fired at point blank range. Yes it is a devistating weapon, but you have to hit the target with it and against an aware fighter opponent, the odds of doing so are very slim. Also, the MK108 30mm velocity is so low that the rounds could easily bounce off the target at anything but a fairly acute striking angle. And something around 25% were duds, the gun had a 1:300-400 jam rate (as opposed to 1:1500 for the Hispano and 1:4000 for the BMG), and was notorious for feed mechanism/belt failures when fired under even light G loads (not accounted into the jam rate figures above).

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Lunatic

The 30mm tests were done with the shell suspended inside the fuselage of the test subjects. No firing from the weapon.