Chocks away!
Senior Airman
how about the mk 103? the larger 30 mm wepon used by the germans
The Best Single Air-to-Air Weapon of the War?
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
- Start date
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
just out of interest what country's flag is that??
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
If you hold the mouse over it, it tells you. It's Cyprus
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
interesting..............
- Thread starter
- #45
cheddar cheese
Major General
cyprus.gif actually... 
Aren't we forgetting that when we are talking about which Air to Air gun is best do deepens on what kind of air-target like which gun suits best against light maneuvered target like the Ki 84, which suit best against the big B 29 and which suit best against the armoured Il-2 for example.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Well as you say I already give my favorite all-aroud gun, it will be the Mauser MG-151/20.
Returning to the 50mm gun I think this are the images mentioned for Erich concerning the actual deployment of BK-5 in combat.
This is a 50mm armed Me-410 breaking after an attack.
Me 410 A-1/U4 from ZG 26 with 5 kill ring in his BK-5 ( Is the same kill counting metod used by the Pak, FlaK, and the Panzers)
Returning to the 50mm gun I think this are the images mentioned for Erich concerning the actual deployment of BK-5 in combat.
This is a 50mm armed Me-410 breaking after an attack.
Me 410 A-1/U4 from ZG 26 with 5 kill ring in his BK-5 ( Is the same kill counting metod used by the Pak, FlaK, and the Panzers)
If there was possible to chose every gun available during WW 2 to the Me 410 I would chose the 57mm Bofors m/45. Whit that gun the Me 410 could be much more serious bomber-killer, maybe possible to mount on the Me 262 (maybe not when it weight 650 kg fully armed) or better on the Arado 234 C-7/N
A
Anonymous
Guest
Kill rings could refer to tanks, and I would expect better results from the BK 37 mm as it had a 160 rpm rate of fire as compared to the BK50's 50 rpm rate of fire, a difference of over 3:1. I cannot find the reference now but I remember reading that even the Luftwaffe engineers and pilots did not think the BK50 worth pursuing but that Hitler liked the idea and that was that. Without a proximity fuse such a weapon was nearly useless for air-to-air combat. It clearly stated the BK50 was an abject failure as an aerial weapon.
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Lunatic
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Lunatic
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Yes, but I still guessing what is the basic ammo in 50mm for the air-to-ait combat. The 50x419R ammo has tree tipes of basic proyectile, the well know PZG 40 (tugsten-core) surely not used against aircraft, others was
APHE-T , the panzergranate 39.
810 m/s initial velocity.
Or a HE-T at 550 meters per second:
The data I have indicated that the 50mm gun mounted in Me-262s was actually a MK-214, wich is a BK-5 with minor modificatios including a semi-gas operated bolt ,that increased the rate of fire from 50 rpm at 160 rpm, also used endless 22 shot belt and have a ligther mounting.
APHE-T , the panzergranate 39.
810 m/s initial velocity.
Or a HE-T at 550 meters per second:
The data I have indicated that the 50mm gun mounted in Me-262s was actually a MK-214, wich is a BK-5 with minor modificatios including a semi-gas operated bolt ,that increased the rate of fire from 50 rpm at 160 rpm, also used endless 22 shot belt and have a ligther mounting.
Erich
the old Sage
the kill rings are for heavy bombers knocked down. I have two other pics showing 4 kills and 3 kills respectively.
The 5cm was still a joke the preference was to still engage at closer range with multiple 2cm weapons.
Ritterkreuzträger Leutnant Rudi Dassow was quite proficient with he Me 410 and up to 6-8 forward 2cm weapons installed. He had shot down 12 US bombers while with 4./ZG 26. Rudi was KIA while flying an Fw 190A-8 in 8./JG 6, an a/c he was really unfamiliar with. Many of the ZG pilots were moved to Reich defence duties flying single engine fighters, a job they had no business doing......Here is a pic of one such multi-armed 410 beast.
The 5cm was still a joke the preference was to still engage at closer range with multiple 2cm weapons.
Ritterkreuzträger Leutnant Rudi Dassow was quite proficient with he Me 410 and up to 6-8 forward 2cm weapons installed. He had shot down 12 US bombers while with 4./ZG 26. Rudi was KIA while flying an Fw 190A-8 in 8./JG 6, an a/c he was really unfamiliar with. Many of the ZG pilots were moved to Reich defence duties flying single engine fighters, a job they had no business doing......Here is a pic of one such multi-armed 410 beast.
Attachments
Erich
the old Sage
CB the 5cm rounds were HE used in the 5cm in the Me 410. The Me 262 Mauser cannon as I indicated never fired in anger so it is superfoulous
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thanks, Erich.
Here a video of P-51 merciless straffing a german airfield, with Me-262s included.
The 6x.50 cal package was very good weapon system in this task....I will give you that, 50 caliber`s fans.
Here a video of P-51 merciless straffing a german airfield, with Me-262s included.
The 6x.50 cal package was very good weapon system in this task....I will give you that, 50 caliber`s fans.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
couldn't tear open targets like 4x20mm hispanos could though.........
A
Anonymous
Guest
the lancaster kicks ass said:
Hit for hit that is true. But with the .50's you had more ammo, and more guns. Also, only a few single engine planes, such as the Typhoon, Tempest, or Corsair, could successfully mount 4 Hispanos - they tried with the Spitfire in the IXc and found it was unworkable (almost all IXc's ended up removing two of the four guns). On the otherhand, even lighter fighters like the P-51 could mount 6 x .50's, and 6 x .50's beats 2 x 20mm Hispanos pretty substantially.
In general, the Hispano's were more appropriate for interceptors, the .50's more appropriate for escort or strafing. The larger ammo supply was needed for such operations, and the added hitting power of the Hispano was not so important.
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Lunatic
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
so you're saying that against "soft targets, possibly designed to withstand MGs, you would rather have 6x.50cals than 4x20mm cannon??
A
Anonymous
Guest
the lancaster kicks ass said:
There were few targets designed to withstand heavy machine gun fire, short of tanks. The .50 M8 API round could penetrate 19 mm of steel plate at 200 meters, making anything upto and including a German halftrack extremely vulnerable. Most targets that could not be destroyed by .50 fire could not be destroyed with 20 mm's either!
Again, very few single engine fighters could successfully mount 4x20mm Hispano's. I'd certainly rather have 6 x .50's with 2000 rounds than 2 x 20mm Hispano II's with 240 rounds, and even probably over four Hispano's with 420 rounds (as on the Spit IXc with 4 guns mounted).
Realistically, the appropratiate comparsions are the P-51 vs. the Spitfire, which means only two 20mm's, or the P-47 vs. the Typhoon or Tempest, which means 8 x .50's. For ground attack, unless the targets are very hard, I think 3200 rounds of .50's are more effective than ~600 rounds of 20mm.
Now, if we are looking at the Corsair, with 928 rounds of 20mm, that is a harder choice.
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Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
CB thanks for the colour footage......impressive. One can imagine 9th AF Jugs punching up the field with their 8 .50's.
A little off the wall but I have some Bodenplatte footage with about 6 different single engine fighter attacks by Fw 190's on 1-1-45 on US and RAF bombers praked on their airfields. Actually they are a bit horrific as you can see the 2cm rounds ripping the guts out of the a/c, the cockpits and fuselage sides almost burst apart
E ~ // the German 5cm is still a suck weapon for aerial work
A little off the wall but I have some Bodenplatte footage with about 6 different single engine fighter attacks by Fw 190's on 1-1-45 on US and RAF bombers praked on their airfields. Actually they are a bit horrific as you can see the 2cm rounds ripping the guts out of the a/c, the cockpits and fuselage sides almost burst apart
E ~ // the German 5cm is still a suck weapon for aerial work
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Just because I like you guys 
Despite I am a MG-151 fan, my favorite anti-bomber weapon is the Reinhmetall- Borsig MK-108.
This gun was proyected more like a fast-firing grenade launcher, than a air cannon. That is because it rely entirely in high-explosive ammunition, that sholud break the aircraft estructure, without any provision for shoting AP.
Off course, is not perfect, it have a low velocity,about 500-505 meters by second, product of short barrel and a short cartrigde case. However this give him a very compact overral length, the same of K98K rifle for example.
The tipical 30x91 mm RB mine shell can carry 85 grams of explosives wich give him an enormous blast effect. ( remember that a hand grenade contains 110-125 grams)
HE-incendiary
The effectiveness of this kind of large capacity explosive ammo can be seeing in this B-24 wich fell prey of the 4x30 mm package of Me-262 in 24 april 1945.
Despite I am a MG-151 fan, my favorite anti-bomber weapon is the Reinhmetall- Borsig MK-108.
This gun was proyected more like a fast-firing grenade launcher, than a air cannon. That is because it rely entirely in high-explosive ammunition, that sholud break the aircraft estructure, without any provision for shoting AP.
Off course, is not perfect, it have a low velocity,about 500-505 meters by second, product of short barrel and a short cartrigde case. However this give him a very compact overral length, the same of K98K rifle for example.
The tipical 30x91 mm RB mine shell can carry 85 grams of explosives wich give him an enormous blast effect. ( remember that a hand grenade contains 110-125 grams)
HE-incendiary
The effectiveness of this kind of large capacity explosive ammo can be seeing in this B-24 wich fell prey of the 4x30 mm package of Me-262 in 24 april 1945.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Hell of a weapon, CB. I had seen the B-24 picture before. I didn't know what hit it. Those poor bastards.
