The Bombing of the Shellhus on March 21, 1945

ivanotter said:

The big question is: as much as it is impossible to imagine, could we see another European war? Not outside forces invading Europe, but a war among the European nations? Tomorrow? next year? 10 years from now?

The Europeans of 1900 (also) thought it impossible.

Just to de-rail this thread further

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I don't see it happening at least in Western Europe per say (England, France vs German). I however do believe that it is only a matter of time that there is a small regional conflict in Europe, and that would be back in the Balkans. Of course that will draw the majority of European nations into it again, but probably in the form of Peace Keepers.

The truly scary thing for me was how readily people sacrificed accepted moral standards under the Nazi regime. There weren't that many Gestapo agents but they successfully harnessed the population's fears so that everyone could be a potential informer. The lack of trust so generated effectively disintegrated society. Could that happen again? I fear it could.

Adler, Germany vs. france, Britain is nearly too easy (maybe?)

What about Spain vs France because of a Basque uprising? Portugal being pulled in and then Germany because Portugal is owing Germany on some loans?

Britain vs Holland over the remnants of North Sea oil? (remember it was Britain vs Iceland in the 60's/70 over fishing rights)

Balkans could be the powder keg it was in 1914.

Russia stopping the oil transfer to Western Europe because of tarif wranglings with Poland, Ukraine, etc? Germany supporting Ukraine and france supporting Russia? Sounds familiar?

As far-fetched as it is and as "fun" to write, I actually think that it is not un-thinkable.

Comments?

Buff: I spoke to an old lady some years back. She said that her best time was as a teenager in the 1930's in Germany. The freedom, the camps, the goals to achieve, the meaning in life, etc. She also said that as the war progressed, she did see all the other things, but that was "hidden" in the beginning.

She was probably not more Nazi than any other person, but it did give her something that the "old" society couldn't.

The fear came later, I think.

It is correct that it is horrible that the sacrifice of moral values could happen just like that. And be sustained for years. I also fear that it is something that is waiting to rear its ugly head again.

What examples would you mention?

A relative of mine, through marriage, is of German heritage. He was in the kriegmarines (sp) during WWII. There was a lot of resentment in Germany over post WWI treatment, plus the depression. Early on it was very easy for the average person to get behind Hitler, just based on seeing his government as a form of 'salvation' for Germany. I don't think anyone could deny that WWII stimulated the economies of many nations. People weren't thinking ideology as much as they were thinking about jobs, and food on the table.

Leif

Zeke_Freak said:

A relative of mine, through marriage, is of German heritage. He was in the kriegmarines (sp) during WWII. There was a lot of resentment in Germany over post WWI treatment, plus the depression. Early on it was very easy for the average person to get behind Hitler, just based on seeing his government as a form of 'salvation' for Germany. I don't think anyone could deny that WWII stimulated the economies of many nations. People weren't thinking ideology as much as they were thinking about jobs, and food on the table.

Leif

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...and with the numbers of unemployed germans after WWI, it was incredibly easy for Hitler to get political back-up from the people of Germany.

ivanotter said:

What examples would you mention?

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The scary thing about "Seduced by Hitler" is the picture it paints of the corruptibility of the average person. This suggests that similar events could occur anywhere where there is a group who bears a grudge. I'm not suggesting it would be on the same scale as Nazi Germany (ie resulting in a global conflict) but one can imagine scenarios involve the Balkans, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russia. Apart from external frictions, there is an equal, if not greater, risk of internal problems within countries, particularly as nationlist groups become ever more atomized and local. One can even imagine separatist groups in America, particularly if current trends of vitriolic political statements continue. How many more incidents like the shocking events in Arizona will it take before something more sinister emerges than the Tea Party or other groups with more extreme agendas?

buffnut453 said:

The scary thing about "Seduced by Hitler" is the picture it paints of the corruptibility of the average person. This suggests that similar events could occur anywhere where there is a group who bears a grudge. I'm not suggesting it would be on the same scale as Nazi Germany (ie resulting in a global conflict) but one can imagine scenarios involve the Balkans, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russia. Apart from external frictions, there is an equal, if not greater, risk of internal problems within countries, particularly as nationlist groups become ever more atomized and local. One can even imagine separatist groups in America, particularly if current trends of vitriolic political statements continue. How many more incidents like the shocking events in Arizona will it take before something more sinister emerges than the Tea Party or other groups with more extreme agendas?

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...which reminded me of this:

The Third Wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words: As a certain german put it:

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood.
But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

~ Hermann Göring.

it is the "cult" mentality or seduction performed on a grand scale. most people are only aware of what is immediately around them and if their life situation changes for the better...and they are able to feel better about themselves ...as long as it goes with their moral character...all is good and they will approve. a lot of the stuff hitler did has been brought to light and is a matter of public record NOW...but in those days it was done in utmost secrecy and the spin doctors of propaganda ( who were masters of the art as well ) were able to control what news was told and how it was disseminated. people want to think only about the good intentions not that the person is a monster....especially if that person has done beneficial things for them. its hard to fathom even today how one person could have such a devious, evil, murderous mind....and we have been desensitized to a greater degree then those people back then. by the time reality sets in...its too late. certain people are able to sway masses....thru being charismistic or fame or just knowing what buttons to push.... jim jones of jamestown, charlie manson, the hale bopp bunch....it can be done and it can be done today on a very large scale...it is scarey, very scarey.

ivanotter said:

It is true that the king had his morning ride through Copenhagen and a German soldier asked a dane: "Where are the bodyguards? who is looking after him" and the Dane answered: "we all look after him".

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My grandfather has mentioned frequently about the King's daily morning ride. Since he has often been guarding him, he has some pictures of King Christian X, at least a few on his horse.

ivanotter said:

Speaking of individual choice: it is correct that there was a danish SS regiment, staffed by danish officers.

Some of the these were youngsters looking for adventure, the normal collection of disturbed individuals, but also volunteers who believed in figthing the communist russians.

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A young man who was the son of some friends of my grandparents was one of these. He joined up and eventually went off to fight for them. At one point he wrote back home and said to his family that it was not like he had thought, and he seemed to regret his choice. Later he was sent home in a box, in dress uniform, shot through the back.

Leif

BikerBabe said:

...which reminded me of this:

The Third Wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words: As a certain german put it:

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood.
But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

~ Hermann Göring.

Click to expand...

buffnut453 said:

One can even imagine separatist groups in America, particularly if current trends of vitriolic political statements continue. How many more incidents like the shocking events in Arizona will it take before something more sinister emerges than the Tea Party or other groups with more extreme agendas?

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Being Canadian, I often think about the differences between Canada and the US. One thing stands out about the US of A. It is a revolutionary government, which is based on guarding the principles that led to its own existence. For instance, the right to own and carry weapons, which is closely integrated into its constitution, unlike some other countries like Canada. So it should be no suprised to know that some 'Americans' harbor revolt against their own government, the very government that protect their rights to do so.

On the other hand, even Canada banned certain groups during WWII, some of the same groups that Hitler and his Nazis persecuted in Germany. I know of at least one case where a group of people (the same people who wore the purple triangle in German concentration camps) was arrested and charged with sedition aginst the Canadian government. The legal charges read "gathering together as a group and reading a book". When asked what book they were charged with reading together as a group, the answer came "the Bible". So Western countries are not always about protecting personal freedoms; despite the fact so many soldiers have died fighting for that freedom.

EDIT: I feel this is a worthwhile discussion, with excellent comments by all. But to some degree I feel uncomfortable speaking much about the politics. Most forums have a 'no politics, no religion' rule. I haven't been here long enough to know all of its rules completely, and I don't want to get such a great thread locked by coming to close to such a discussion. Maybe we can steer this back to talk more about the topic of the thread?

For instance... were there other bombing raids carried out in WWII that were similar to the Shell building situation... where resistance groups were involved maybe?

Leif

Maria, that is a scary quote of Goering's!

I agree with Leif. Let's get this back on track. Probably the most famous (only?) was the Amiens raid.

Let's not test the moderators too much, agree.

Those two are the only one's I have have heard of as well.

Was something similar ever attempted in Pacific/China by the USAAF/USN?

Just to get another view on precision bombing:

This is quoted from "The war of a 100 days" by James Ambrose Brown on the first Allied successful campaign: Somalia and Abyssinia, 1940-41.

This little war was fought primarily with South African troops against Italian forces.

Quote: pg 78:

The story was already legenday. On 14 August 1940, Lt Charles Kearey was ordered to fly spare parts and mechanics to Lokitaung to repair a crashed Battle. He was pilot of a Vickers Valentia, a vintage biplane troop carrier used to convey mail and stores at a comfortable top speed of 90 mph. At Lokitaung an engineer boring for water pointed out an Italian fort only ten miles away in the hills.

"Pity I haven't a bomb to drop on it" Kearey said. "I'll make you one" said Lt Joe Lentzner. Around a core of 380 sticks of dynamite Lentzner packed scrap iron, a sewing machine, a car differential, nuts and bolts, all in a 44-gallon oil drum.

Kearey told the present author: "Lentzner crimpted the detonators into the dynamite with his teeth, removed the door of the valentia and stood the drum in the aperture. We put down mattresses to protect the bombadiers on the run-up to the target and took off in the dark, heading east for lake Rudolph. After circling for about twenty minutes until it grew light I told lentzner to stand by. I was starting my run-up right down on the tree tops and opened the valentia fullout. Straight at the fort and about 60 seconds away I shouted to Lentzner to light the 60-second fuse"

In the dawn light the towers of the fort twinkled with gunfire. Lt oscar Coetzee, along for the ride, was hit in the foot. Blood ran dwon Kearey's forehead from a gash from the splintering instrument panel.

"We were below the fort walls. As we came in with the fuse burning, I pulled the valentia up and over the courtyard at about a hundred feet. it was packed with sleeping soldiers. Lentzner and helpers yelled they couldn't get the drum out so I threw her on her side and out it tumbled. The blast lifted us with a tremendous jolt. I looked back to see a column of black smoke".

Back at Lokitaung, Kearey could not conceal the 93 hits on the Valentia's wood-and-fabtric body or the wounds to his crew. A Rome Radio broadcast amplified the old valentia into a squadron of RAF bombers attacking the fort and beaten off. By the time Moorehead heard of the legendary version six months later, the story concluded that the 'entire garrison' - over fifty men - was found dead in the abandoned fort by our troops"

No decorations were awarded for this exploit. It was 'severe reprimands' all round for the 'bombing crew' of Kearey's now legendary adventrure.
Quote end.

Now, that is an un-usual role for a Valentia and shows either brilliance or something else.

Thought this would enlighten your day, all.

Ivan.

Zeke, it is 'no politics, no religion' here as well but don't worry - its all good.

Zeke_Freak said:

My grandfather has mentioned frequently about the King's daily morning ride. Since he has often been guarding him, he has some pictures of King Christian X, at least a few on his horse.


A young man who was the son of some friends of my grandparents was one of these. He joined up and eventually went off to fight for them. At one point he wrote back home and said to his family that it was not like he had thought, and he seemed to regret his choice. Later he was sent home in a box, in dress uniform, shot through the back.

Leif

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Hi guys.

Here's a video of the king on his daily morning ride, and - later in the video - together with his son, Frederik, and his children; among them our present queen, Margrethe II of Denmark, as a baby.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuTtxvDWiqU

BikerBabe said:

Hi guys.

Here's a video of the king on his daily morning ride, and - later in the video - together with his son, Frederik, and his cildren; among them our present queen, Margrethe II of Denmark, as a baby.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuTtxvDWiqU

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That's fantastic Maria! Thank you for sharing this. My mom will be very happy to see this as well. She was born in Copenhagen in 1944.

Very neat how everyone takes off their hat to the King.

I learned something new about the newspaper image I have of my grandfather guarding as the King Queen walk past... on my audio tape of my grandfather, he says that the King was on his way to see the present queen, Margrethe II of Denmark, when she was first born, and to congratulate his son on her birth.

Maria, I know I ask so much of you already, but can you translate the caption of the clipping? I am curious about it.



Leif

Zeke_Freak said:

That's fantastic Maria! Thank you for sharing this. My mom will be very happy to see this as well. She was born in Copenhagen in 1944.

Very neat how everyone takes off their hat to the King.

I learned something new about the newspaper image I have of my grandfather guarding as the King Queen walk past... on my audio tape of my grandfather, he says that the King was on his way to see the present queen, Margrethe II of Denmark, when she was first born, and to congratulate his son on her birth.

Maria, I know I ask so much of you already, but can you translate the caption of the clipping? I am curious about it.

Leif

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Of course Leif, here's the text in english:

The king [- also known as The Riding King] and the queen on their way, crossing the square at Amalienborg [The royal residence in Copenhagen], heading to the mansion of the Crown Prince, to pay a visit to Crown Princess Ingrid.

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A photo of King Christian on his birthday on Sept. 25, 1940.
Please note that there is no Royal Guard following His Majesty, and that there is no security or police officers present. It wasn't necessary.
The daily horse ride through Copenhagen very quickly became the king's own private little rebellion against the germans, who didn't like this. But they didn't dare to touch the king or challenge his status and power in any way, so he was allowed his daily horse ride.

On the king's 72nd birthday, Adolf Hitler sent the king a congratulatory telegramme, and the king sent a very short and curt: "Dem Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler. Besten Dank für die Glückwünsche. Christian Rex". Translation: "To Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler. Thank you very much for the greeting. Christian Rex."
A very short letter of thank you was - back then at least - considered inappropriate and very close to an insult, so Herr Hitler became pi**ed off to such a degree that he ended up demanding a more german-friendly danish government.
The diplomatic liaisons got very busy with sending apologies for fear of a complete german take-over of Denmark, and the solution was that a new, danish government was selected.
That only lasted a few months, then the germans took over anyway.

Another thing was that it became very popular to buy and wear a King's Badge/Pin during the german occupation of Denmark.
It wasn't illegal in any way, but it was a tiny rebellion against the rule and rules of the german occupying forces, and it also became a way of showing others where your allegiance lay.
At the same time you supported King Christian X's Foundation, that supports the research in, prevention of and fighting of diseases.
1,178,534 badges and pins were sold - in a population of roughly 5 million people.



Right: The buttonhole version of the King's Badge for gentlemen, and at left, the ladies' version, both are silver. A gold badge were also available.



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Here's a little about King Christian X and his son, Frederik:



King Christian X and his queen, Alexandrine, with their two sons, Crown Prince Frederik (later King Frederik IX) and Prince Knud.




King Frederik IX [known as The Sailor King] with his queen, Ingrid [- a very strong and strong-willed lady!], and their three daughters, princess Margrethe (standing behind her father), princess Elisabeth (standing between the parents), and princess Benedikte (standing in front of Elisabeth).
Because King Frederik didn't have any sons, the Act of Succession had to be changed, so Margrethe could become queen. The law was changed in 1953, and Margrethe became queen in 1972, when her father died.

A wee funny story, told to me by an old colleague - let's call him X - who in his younger days helped guard the royal residence. This happened one of the first times:
One very early saturday morning, a very drunk gentleman came riding - or attempting to ride - his bicycle, came tumbling up the alley to the royal residence.
The gentleman ended up tumbling headlong into the nearest ditch, and X ran over to see if he could help the poor bicycle rider.
He helped the man get back up, brushed him off and picked up his bicycle, when he realised that it was King Frederik. "Your Majesty!" he stammered, are you alright?"
King Frederik laughed, "Yes, yes officer, I'm perfectly fine!"
X breathed a huge sigh of relief!
"But!" His Majesty continued, "can we agree on one thing, officer?"
X nodded eagerly.
"...can we agree that we won't tell a thing to Ingrid???"
X nodded again, now quite baffled, and the king wished X a good morning, then walked gingerly and wobbling back home to the castle, dragging his bicycle with him.
Y'see, what X didn't know was that King Frederik loved to spend a friday night at the local pub with his mates, and he did so regularly - and his wife, Queen Ingrid, wasn't very fond of it, to put it mildly!

Thanks Maria. That's some great info. The story with King Fredrik is quite amusing.

My grandmother must been in on that lil rebellion you spoke of. She gave me this: (sorry for the poor picture)



Leif

Great info Maria! Just reinforced why I like Denmark and the Danes so much !

Maria, thansk for showing us those pins. I just realised that my mom still has hers somewhere in the house.

Yours,