The coming $26 billion windfall for the Canadian Armed Forces. What to buy?

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Priority one to me, AIP ice-capable SSKs, and an AUKUS membership with SSN acquisition program. Japan has offered their Sōryū-class to Australia, India, Morocco, Norway, Netherlands and Taiwan. Unlike Canada, Japan maintains a constant trickle of warships, so there may be opportunities to buy retiring Japanese subs.
 
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BobB said:
For $26 billion, could they restart the Avro Arrow?
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We should never have made the Avro Arrow. It was a dumb move by Ottawa, Avro and its British owners at Hawker-Siddeley. In the world of ICBMs, none of Canada, NORAD or NATO needed another large interceptor to chase the increasingly non-existent threat of strategic bombers. What we should have built is a multirole competitor to the McDonnell F-4 Phantom II, which first flew in 1958, the same year as the Avro Arrow.

And Avro Canada's owners at Hawker-Siddeley already had such an aircraft in the works, the Hawker P.1121 (shown below in 1957), intended for both radar-equipped interceptor AND ground attack missions, including tactical nuclear weapons. These were the very exact same missions the RCAF would soon be using the F-101 Voodoo and F-104 Starfighter for - these roles could have been domestically fulfilled instead!



Now, for Canada we'd want a twin engined variant. And guess what.... in May 1957, a nearly year before the Avro Arrow first flies, Sir Sydney Camm produced a rough draft of a twin-engined version of the P.1121, called the P.1125, which was to have been powered by a pair of Rolls-Royce RB.133 engines. Make the P.1125 as a twin-engined competitor to the McDonnell F-4 Phantom II and Canada and Britain would have found customers with the RCAF, RAF, FAA, and others.
 
Considering how many wars Canada has been in over the past 70 years, they could have used Beavers for their frontline fighter.
 
BobB said:
Considering how many wars Canada has been in over the past 70 years, they could have used Beavers for their frontline fighter.
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Well throw in a puck, call it a game and balance of power is going to shift.
I hope i can find back a very funny youtube bit that is just that.

And throwing in Beavers to stop a war i am in favour of.
 
BobB said:
Considering how many wars Canada has been in over the past 70 years, they could have used Beavers for their frontline fighter.
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That's not entirely fair. For example, Canada's CF-18s have been deployed to at least eight combat or danger zones.

1. Gulf War (1990–1991)

  • Operation Desert Storm (1991): The Canadian Forces participated in the Gulf War as part of the U.S.-led coalition. CF-18s were deployed to the region and flew combat missions, primarily focusing on air superiority and interdiction roles. These missions were flown against Iraqi targets, such as air defenses and ground forces, to support the liberation of Kuwait.
    • Combat Sorties: CF-18s flew bombing missions against Iraqi military infrastructure, and conducted reconnaissance and fighter patrols over Kuwait and Iraq.
    • Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground Operations: They were involved in both air-to-air combat (to maintain air superiority) and air-to-ground operations, including precision strikes against enemy installations.

2. Bosnian War (1992–1995)

  • Operation Deny Flight (1993-1995): CF-18s participated in NATO's enforcement of the no-fly zone over Bosnia and Herzegovina. This mission was primarily aimed at preventing Bosnian Serb aircraft from flying and carrying out attacks on civilian areas.
    • Combat Sorties: CF-18s conducted air patrols, engaged in combat air patrols (CAP), and were involved in intercepting and escorting non-compliant aircraft. There were several instances of CF-18s escorting civilian aircraft to safety and providing air superiority for UN and NATO operations.

3. Kosovo War (1999)

  • Operation Allied Force (1999): Canada's CF-18s participated in the NATO bombing campaign over Yugoslavia, which aimed to end the humanitarian crisis in Kosovo and force the withdrawal of Serbian forces.
    • Combat Sorties: Canadian CF-18s flew bombing and air superiority missions, including targeting Serbian military positions, infrastructure, and logistical networks in Kosovo and Serbia.

4. Afghanistan (2001–2014)

  • Operation Apollo (2001–2003): Following the 9/11 attacks, Canada deployed CF-18s as part of Operation Apollo, which was Canada's contribution to the international military effort in Afghanistan under NATO and the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom.
    • Combat Sorties: CF-18s were primarily tasked with air interdiction, close air support (CAS) for ground forces, and providing combat air patrols (CAP) over the region. They conducted bombing raids against Taliban and Al-Qaeda targets.
  • Operation Athena (2003–2014): Canadian CF-18s continued to provide air support for the ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) operations, offering support for ground operations and engaging Taliban insurgents with precision strikes.
    • Combat Sorties: Close air support and precision bombing runs on insurgent positions, as well as CAP and air-to-ground attacks.

5. Libya (2011)

  • Operation MOBILE (2011): As part of the NATO-led intervention to enforce UN Security Council Resolution 1973, CF-18s were deployed to Libya in response to the Libyan Civil War.
    • Combat Sorties: Canadian CF-18s conducted air-to-ground strike missions against Libyan government military assets, including air defenses, command-and-control centers, and military vehicles. The goal was to weaken the regime's ability to fight opposition forces while also providing air cover for humanitarian operations.
    • No-Fly Zone Enforcement: CF-18s were involved in patrolling the no-fly zone and engaging in combat air patrols to enforce UN sanctions.

6. Operation Impact (2014–2021)

  • Operation Impact (2014–2021): This was Canada's contribution to the international coalition against the Islamic State (ISIS) in Iraq and Syria. Canadian CF-18s were deployed to conduct airstrike missions in support of Iraqi and Kurdish ground forces fighting ISIS.
    • Combat Sorties: Canadian CF-18s flew bombing sorties targeting ISIS positions, including training camps, weapons depots, supply lines, and command centers. The airstrikes were part of the broader international effort to degrade ISIS's operational capabilities.
    • Close Air Support and Strategic Bombing: CF-18s engaged in close air support missions for Iraqi and Kurdish forces and provided air superiority to protect coalition ground operations.

7. Operation Reassurance (2014–Present)

  • Operation Reassurance: While primarily a NATO reassurance and deterrence mission in Eastern Europe (post-2014), Canada's CF-18s have been involved in combat-ready operations, including air policing and air patrols in response to Russian activities in the region. While this operation isn't directly a combat mission, it does involve maintaining air superiority in a high-threat environment.
    • Air Policing: Canadian CF-18s have participated in NATO air policing missions over the Baltic and Eastern Europe, conducting combat air patrols in response to Russian air activities near NATO airspace.

8. Operation Noble Eagle (2001–Present)

  • Operation Noble Eagle: While primarily focused on domestic air defense in response to the 9/11 attacks, CF-18s have conducted combat sorties as part of NORAD's air defense and sovereignty protection mission.
    • Combat Sorties: Although not primarily a combat operation, CF-18s have been involved in intercepting and identifying suspicious aircraft approaching Canadian and U.S. airspace, including potential threats or hijacked aircraft.
 
Priorities are a typical topic and a bone of contention in the internal Ukrainian military-related debate.
For example, some argue that too much attention was paid to shiny hi-tech toys when troops on the ground required more heavy infantry equipment, such as machine guns, grenade launchers, and flame throwers.
There were also many sober discoveries as the speed of the enemy's adaptation to high precision weapons. GPS spoofing made some systems redundant, at least for the time being. Excalibur munition, for example.
Or take the cheap slow/low flying long-range UAV that was first introduced as Iranian "Shakheed" and then copied, replicated and improved and now launched in mixed formations of decoys and armed drones. There is still no good and cheap countermeasure against this thing. 120 F-35 will help but at what cost...
 
Those are good points.

Part of the problem is that the types of war Canada potentially faces includes 3 very different scenarios. One is ground combat - whether as support during an invasion of Europe, or as an ally in a smaller scale war such as Ukraine. Another is global war with maritime combat as a predominate concern. The third is self defense/defense of North America, which could revolve around air warfare. And of course, various combinations of the 3.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
Why, hookers and blow, of course.
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Damn it, now I've got Blow At High Dough in my head on repeat.

Back on topic, it looks like Japan has left the building for our SSK program.

Japan not taking part in procurement bid for Canadian Navy's new subs

With billions of dollars at stake and Arctic security concerns, Canada’s submarine procurement competition is poised to be one of the decade's most sought after deals.
www.hilltimes.com

Here's a comparison of the remaining contenders, complements of ChatGPT:

Submarine TypeDisplacementLengthBeamComplementEnduranceWeaponry
Shortfin Barracuda (France)4,700 tons (surfaced)99 meters (325 ft)8 meters (26 ft)60-70 personnel45 days6 x 533mm torpedo tubes, SCALP Naval cruise missiles, torpedoes, mines
Type 121CD/E (Germany)3,600 tons (surfaced)77 meters (253 ft)8 meters (26 ft)35-40 personnel50+ days6 x 533mm torpedo tubes, torpedoes, mine warfare capabilities
KSS III Batch II (South Korea)3,900 tons (surfaced)83.9 meters (275 ft)9 meters (29.5 ft)50-60 personnel60+ days6 x 533mm torpedo tubes, Hyunmoo missiles, torpedoes
Navantia S-80 (Spain)3,000 tons (surfaced)81 meters (266 ft)7.3 meters (24 ft)40-50 personnel30-40 days6 x 533mm torpedo tubes, torpedoes, mines
SAAB C71 (Sweden)1,200 tons (surfaced)60 meters (197 ft)6.2 meters (20.3 ft)20-30 personnel14-21 days6 x 533mm torpedo tubes, torpedoes

Here's a breakdown of the Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) capability and near-ice capability:

Submarine TypeAIPNear Ice Capability
Shortfin Barracuda (SSK)YesNo (Designed for warmer climates)
Type 121CD/E (Germany)YesYes (Capable of operating in colder waters, but not specifically Arctic)
KSS III Batch II (South Korea)YesYes (Designed for cold waters, including near-Arctic regions)
Navantia S-80 (Spain)YesNo (Optimized for Mediterranean and temperate climates)
SAAB C71 (Sweden)YesYes (Designed for cold-water operations, including near ice)
 
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