The efficiency of multiple crewmen in destroyer type fighters

[Schelde]

I have heard the rationale behind including multiple crew in this class of fighter; to operate longer ranged, bomber style radio sets and man defensive guns. However, for a non pilot such as myself, this seems like a poor trade off. The additional size of the airframe and weight of the equipment appears difficult to justify for planes defined primarily as fighters.

Before WWII it seems most people understood single, hand held, rifle caliber machine guns were of limited defensive value. Fitting every plane with a comprehensive radio set also seems expensive and dubious. For example the Japanese, even thougth they joined the bandwagon of developing multiseat fighters, actually relied on long range single engine planes which stuck by the bombers for navigation.

However, I never assume people in the past were just foolish. So my question is, what exactly did these additional aircrew contribute and, given the technology of the time, how valuable was this? Anyone with piloting experience or knowledge of the German requirements wish to help dispell my ignorance?

 

[RCAFson]

I have heard the rationale behind including multiple crew in this class of fighter; to operate longer ranged, bomber style radio sets and man defensive guns. However, for a non pilot such as myself, this seems like a poor trade off. The additional size of the airframe and weight of the equipment appears difficult to justify for planes defined primarily as fighters.

Before WWII it seems most people understood single, hand held, rifle caliber machine guns were of limited defensive value. Fitting every plane with a comprehensive radio set also seems expensive and dubious. For example the Japanese, even thougth they joined the bandwagon of developing multiseat fighters, actually relied on long range single engine planes which stuck by the bombers for navigation.

However, I never assume people in the past were just foolish. So my question is, what exactly did these additional aircrew contribute and, given the technology of the time, how valuable was this? Anyone with piloting experience or knowledge of the German requirements wish to help dispell my ignorance?

You've kind of answered your own question. However, in a very large and heavy airframe, which was needed when engine power was low, the weight of a 2nd crew member made up a proportionately small % of total weight and in exchange the pilot got, literally 'eyes in the back of his head' and an extra pair of hands and eyes to reduce his work load.

 

[pbehn]

Before the war and well into it radio operators used Morse code which had a much better range than voice communication.

 

[Shortround6]

In part the Japanese used bombers for navigation because their radios sucked.*
Please note that some other air forces used bombers as 'navigators' on long distance ferry flights or a few operational ones.

Japanese radios either were not grounded well and/or had problems with less than adequate shielding on the ignition systems.
This was not a Japanese only problem, First P-47s in England had to have their radios replaced by British radios before they could go on operations.

Like a lot of other things, there was a lot of advancement in radio gear in just a few years what you could do with a 1943-44 radio set was almost undreamed of in 1937-38.

A lot of times the radio operator had to raise or lower an antenna mast, he may have had to let out an antenna ( dozens or scores of feet, and wind it back in) and in some cases the length of the antenna needed be changed according the frequency being used. Or the radio had to "tuned" to the antenna. Little resistor pots had to be turned to get the best signal with a certain length antenna on a certain frequency.

The large, long range "fighters" often doubled as reconnaissance aircraft.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What about the second man in Mosquito day fighters? He's got no gun and beyond reading maps is along for the ride. No wonder they removed him for the Hornet.

 

[pbehn]

What about the second man in Mosquito day fighters? He's got no gun and beyond reading maps is along for the ride. No wonder they removed him for the Hornet.

He was there to keep the pilot awake, that's why the twin Mustang was developed, just to keep the pilot awake.

 

[Admiral Beez]

He was there to keep the pilot awake, that's why the twin Mustang was developed, just to keep the pilot awake.

The pilot had better have his intercom turned on. Did the Twin Mustang have dual controls?

 

[pbehn]

The pilot had better have his intercom turned on. Did the Twin Mustang have dual controls?

Of course, if the pilot fell asleep he was out of elbow range. I think the navigator on a mosquito fighter bomber also did some of the duties of a flight engineer, watching dials and fuel levels, and of curse a second pair of eyes.

 

[Schelde]

Shortround6,

Thanks for the specifics, I am aware that the Japanese were making a virtue of necessity. Actually, it was the IJAAF vacillating on the ki-96 project, switching back and forth between one and two crew, that got me wondering about the specifics of the additional crewman(s) duties. Beyond the difficulty of working early, more powerful, radios, I assume they were mostly there for navigation.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Of course, if the pilot fell asleep he was out of elbow range. I think the navigator on a mosquito fighter bomber also did some of the duties of a flight engineer, watching dials and fuel levels, and of curse a second pair of eyes.

Could the second crew member on the Mosquito not reload the Hispano's as well?
or maybe I am thinking of the Bf 110...

 

[Shortround6]

The Bf 110 had the gunner/radio operator reload the 20mm guns.

By the time the Mosquito showed up the British had belt fed guns.

The first 400 or so Beaufighters used drum fed guns and the 2nd crew man was a very busy boy indeed, trying to keep up with four guns (Bf 110 had two) and heaving 60lb drums around inside a maneuvering fighter in the dark. The Beaufighter carried 3 spare drums per gun plus the ones on the guns at take-off.

 

[GrauGeist]

The SBD's crewman also had a set of flight controls available to him.

 

[yulzari]

The first 400 or so Beaufighters used drum fed guns and the 2nd crew man was a very busy boy indeed, trying to keep up with four guns (Bf 110 had two) and heaving 60lb drums around inside a maneuvering fighter in the dark. The Beaufighter carried 3 spare drums per gun plus the ones on the guns at take-off.

Oh yes. I once knew an early NF Beaufighter Operator and he described the 'fun' of manoeuvring 60lb drums with sharp metal feed lips out of, securing, then into four cannon in the dark with the world gyrating in all directions and the G forces on the 60lb drums varying from zero to 3+ so at time the drums could weigh 200 lb momentarily as the cabbie tries to keep visual contact with the target. He had been a Fairey Battle gunner in France and rated that experience less frightening than reloading Hispanos in a night encounter.

 

[Schelde]

I'm not sure how much they weighed, but the Ki-45 had a 50 round double drum that the rear gunner lowered into position with a hand cranked cable. At least that's what I make of the diagrams in the Maru Mechanic.

 

[gjs238]

in some cases the length of the antenna needed be changed according the frequency being used. Or the radio had to "tuned" to the antenna. Little resistor pots had to be turned to get the best signal with a certain length antenna on a certain frequency.

Standing wave ratio - Wikipedia
SWR meter - Wikipedia

 

[gjs238]

The SBD's crewman also had a set of flight controls available to him.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The SBD's crewman also had a set of flight controls available to him.

View attachment 577916

So if your pilot gets shot, you're supposed to turn around and fly the beast back and land it on the boat....with no flight instruments and no forward visibility?? Huh?? Good luck!!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[fastmongrel]

Standing wave ratio - Wikipedia
SWR meter - Wikipedia

I know most of the words just not the way they are put together in those wiki pages.

My knowledge of electramajiggery goes as far as my knowledge of horses. One end bites the other end kicks.

 

[fastmongrel]

So if your pilot gets shot, you're supposed to turn around and fly the beast back and land it on the boat....with no flight instruments and no forward visibility?? Huh?? Good luck!!
Cheers,
Wes

Perhaps it was to allow the pilot to have a break or did they have an autopilot for that.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I know most of the words just not the way they are put together in those wiki pages.

My knowledge of electramajiggery goes as far as my knowledge of horses. One end bites the other end kicks.

To put it in the simplest terms, if the impedances of the transmitter, transmission line, and antenna aren't perfectly matched, some of the power generated by the transmitter is reflected from the antenna back up the transmission line. This reflected power forms a pattern of constructive and destructive interference nodes with the transmitter signal called Standing Waves. The larger the impedance mismatch, the higher the Standing Wave Ratio, and the less the signal being radiated at the antenna.
At least, that's what they'd have you believe, but any self-respecting sailor knows the true definition is the percentage of the Wave barracks inmates that make it to morning muster the day after Suzy's promotion party blowout.
Cheers,
Wes