The Flat Earth society

[fubar57]

Yep. I really love taking telephone polls

 

[michael rauls]

I read the results of a poll that indicated that 25% of the people make up one quarter of the population.

 

[The Basket]

A friend advised me that one of his friends was a crazy conspiracy theorist and there was no way of arguing with him.

But you could out crazy him.

So when asked by his conspiracy chum if he believed in the moon landings, his response was,

'you believe there's a moon?'

if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, you must embrace...a larger view of the conspiracy

 

[mikewint]

11) They are all morons...

While I understand the source of your categorization of this group dismissing an idea in pejorative terms is a trap. I'm sure that Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin, and many others were termed Morons and worse.

From the Medical Establishment come many others whose discoveries were rejected out of hand regardless of evidence. Starting with William Harvey and De Mortu Cordis rejected for decades, Harvey was ostracized by the scientific world, becoming a recluse, living life in private and peace rather than launching again on what he called "the faithless sea.";
Ignaz Semmelweis was a Hungarian physician working at the Vienna General Hospital where, at the time, maternal mortality due to puerperal fever reached as high as 50%. Semmelweis discovered that the Hospital's medical students went from autopsying cadavers straight to birthing babies. Though he didn't know anything about germs, he assumed it was a lack of cleanliness causing unnecessary deaths. When he had doctors and midwives wash their hands in chlorine lime solutions, the mortality rates went down to 1 percent. Naturally this Moron was completely rejected by his peers who viewed him as an embarrassment. The rejection drove him to alcoholism, depression, and isolation.
William Coley — a cancer researcher and bone surgeon who worked at New York Cancer Hospital. One of Coley's patients began recovering from cancer after he was infected with Streptococcus pyogenesbacteria. Coley theorized that post-surgical infections mobilized the immune system. He experimented with what became known as Coley's toxins — mixtures of dead bacteria, particularly streptococcus, injected into cancer patients to trigger their immune systems. He kept a series of case reports on it, but most of his scientific peers rejected the idea, writing it off as crazy and dangerous.
Francis Peyton Rous was a pathologist who discovered that certain viruses may play a role in the development of particular kinds of cancer. In 1911, while he was working at Rockefeller University in New York City, Rous noted that a sarcoma growing on a chicken could be transmitted to healthy chickens through a cell-free extract injection of chicken tumor. His findings were largely discredited. Over 50 years later, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine.

It is a slippery slope to simply write a theory off as total nonsense because "We know better". To understand Flat Earthers, and other people who hold unconventional beliefs, we need to first consider what it means to "believe." A belief is a cognitive representation of the nature of reality, encompassing our inner experiences, the world around us, and the world beyond. In 1965, Oxford philosophy professor H.H. Price distinguished between "believing in" and "believing that." As summarized by John Byrne, author of the website Skeptical Medicine, "believing that" something is true is a relatively straightforward matter of looking at the evidence. "Seeing is believing" is one kind of "believing that." In contrast, we "believe in" something when there's no evidence and the belief isn't falsifiable. Religious faith is a kind of "believing in." Both types of believing are normal cognitive capacities, but can run amok when combined, resulting in beliefs that are poor models of reality.
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

 

[michael rauls]

First off I applaud the fact the Flat Earthers' are actually employing Cartesian doubt, a method of skeptical thinking following a philosophical idea that the world outside the self is subject to uncertainty initially promulgated by René Descartes, the French philosopher, mathematician, and scientist.

Next consider Michel Foucault, a 20th century philosopher who made a career of studying those on the fringes of society to understand what they could tell us about everyday life.
He looked closely at the close relationship between power and knowledge. He suggested that knowledge is created and used in a way that reinforces the claims to legitimacy of those in power. At the same time, those in power control what is considered to be correct and incorrect knowledge. According to Foucault, there is therefore an intimate and interlinked relationship between power and knowledge.
Consider, for example, the way in which early religious institutions, who previously held a very singular hold over knowledge and morality exercised a very ridged control over that knowledge which then in turn supported their position of power. While that religion based control eventually ended it would seem that today we are moving towards a network of scientific institutions, media monopolies, legal courts, and bureaucratised governments which are replacing those former religious institutions. Foucault argued that these institutions work to maintain their claims to legitimacy by controlling knowledge.

Consider HG Well's "world brain" essays in 1936, that held that a worldwide shared resource of knowledge (such as today's internet) would create peace, harmony and a common interpretation of reality. It appears that quite the opposite has happened. With the increased voice afforded by social media, knowledge has been increasingly decentralized, and competing narratives have emerged each supported by cadres of followers who would never have met nor been able to organize without social media.

So far so good, then it gets scary.

A recent YouGov poll (believe it or not) found that only about two-thirds of Americans aged between 18 and 24 believe that the Earth is round. Furthermore, there seems to be a growing belief that the idea that the Earth is round (well actually an Oblate Spheroid iff'n ya wants to be picky) is actually a conspiracy theory.

And it's gaining more believers than some of the other conspiracies out there, like chemtrails (which, as we all know is actually Chris and his cohorts, dispensing chemical and/or biological agents from their high flying jets).

Interest in most of these other far-fetched theories remains relatively stable but the flat-Earth movement is growing, particularly in America. And it has some high-profile supporters, from basketball players to musicians, rappers to TV hosts, a number of celebrities are jumping on the flat Earth bandwagon.

So why, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, is the flat-Earth movement gaining traction in the 21st century? IMHO, it's due to a general shift towards populism and growing distrust in the views of experts, academics, scientific agencies, the government and the mainstream media. Once again IMHO, I lay this at the door of social media. A fringe group of really good "influencers" can now hold more sway than an expert in the field and very soon you can get a bunch of people around you who are constantly reaffirming your belief. These social media self-proclaimed experts are really good storytellers and people naively think, 'Oh, they're a real person, not an academic, a scientific agency, part of the government or the mainstream media so it must be true'.

The flat Earth community uses various social media platforms to create a kind of welcoming ecosystem that attracts those who distrust the "establishment". YouTube becomes a content hub, Facebook becomes an administrative one-stop shop for that hub, and then Twitter continually pushes out the message. For these fringe groups flat-earthers, et al, YouTube becomes an alternative documentary channel. Via YouTube these groups can have their daily or weekly TV show in the same way that we might watch David Attenborough, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, etc.
YouTube is a powerful social media tool, more so than Facebook or Twitter because it's a "high context" platform, where users can stream themselves with an immediacy and intimacy that's lacking from text or TV specials. And unlike TV, on YouTube you can go searching for videos by people who agree with your view of the world or in this case, the Flat Earth. As we increasingly rely on social media for entertainment, we are creating an environment where misinformation easily circulates and becomes reinforced.
Look at how quickly the Flat Earthers spread the idea that the UN supported their position by their very logo which they say is actually a flat Earth map.

Lastly let me add that the results of a single public opinion survey are by no means authoritative. Differences in the phrasing of questions, variance in the methods of polling, randomness and error and (rarely but sadly) misconduct: all of these guarantees that a single survey should never be taken as the last word.

I think you're right about the mistrust of experts facilitating erroneous beliefs like flat earth, chemtrails, etc. amoung a certain percentage of the population and although most of these shall we say alternative realities are laughable the mistrust of experts is not entirely unwarranted.
For example in the investment world( another one of my hobbies) at the end of every economic cycle most of the experts which for the most part work for sell side institutions i.e. Goldman Sachs, J.P.Morgan et all, will continue to give buy recommendations long after it is obvious to anyone who has any basic knowledge about economic cycles that things are turning down. Right now for example one can find numerous articles in the financial press that even though the yield curve has inverted( this has preceded every recession in modern history with only one false alarm) that this time its different and we shouldn't pay attention to the yield curve inversion this time. ( they do this every buisness cycle by the way).
Why do they do this? Because they are beholden to those they make the most money from and that is the brokerage houses that employ them and by extension institutional clients and those brokerage houses and institutional clients need bag holders( that would be your average mom and pop investor) to unload there economicly sensitive assets to when the economy is turning down.
So......... when people get lied to or scammed by experts like in the example above enough times it eventually brings about mistrust of anything experts say in some people which I would atribute to the herd mentality or one could say the tenancy of people to join sides. That is many seem to be short on critical thinking skills and openmindedness and if failed by experts, whether intentionally as in the example above or simply because experts can be wrong also, will reflexively "choose a side" i.e. either they are with all experts or against all experts instead of examining the merits of each issue. Many will choose the against side thereby giving use fervent believers in flat earth, chemtrails, etc.
...........As long as I kinda touched on economics i wouldn't feel right if I didn't give my buy/ sell recommendation for for anyone interested. And that recommendation is..................................................SELL!!!!!!!!!!!............... or at least lighten up on the economically sensitive assets, stocks, corperate bonds etc............remember you herd it here first. Could it really be different this time? Sure it could...... but I doubt it.

 

[wuzak]

First off I applaud the fact the Flat Earthers' are actually employing Cartesian doubt, a method of skeptical thinking following a philosophical idea that the world outside the self is subject to uncertainty initially promulgated by René Descartes, the French philosopher, mathematician, and scientist.

I think that you give them too much credit.

Many flat earthers have been sold the idea that the bible says that the earth is flat. And they believe the bible to be true.

Others just don't understand the basics of how the earth works, or don't understand the explanations for it.

Others are straight out frauds. They exploit the idea of flat earth for personal financial gain. A number of flat earth YouTubers have their channels monetized, and provide several other ways for people to give them money.

Largely those who follow the flat earth hold to many other conspiracy theories - from 9/11, a world wide shadow government, chemtrails, moan landings, etc - and have a deep mistrust of government.

Some do their own experiments. But often the experiment doesn't work or produce the results they expect, need, so they discard the results.

An example of this was shown in the documentary Behind the Curve. A group of people bough an expensive gyroscope which was to show that the earth does not rotate. When it showed a 15° they dismissed the findings as being influenced by the "heavenly energies".

 

[wuzak]

While I understand the source of your categorization of this group dismissing an idea in pejorative terms is a trap. I'm sure that Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin, and many others were termed Morons and worse.

I doubt any of those were though morons.

Heretics is more likely. Galileo was even put under house arrest by the church for his work.

But Galileo wasn't working in a vacuum. He was building on the works of Copernicus, Kepler, Brahe and others. He provided evidence for his theories.

The examples you cite may have been ridiculed or rejected, but they provided evidence for their claims, though it was not accepted by their peers.

In the Behind the Curve documentary several scientists are interviewed, as well as the flat earthers. They generally do not summarily dismiss them as "morons", and one even says that they should be applauded for trying to discern reality for themselves, even if their methods or conclusions are faulty.

The problem is that the flat earthers are often not swayed by evidence, and will dismiss explanations that don't conform to their ideas.

Many will talk of the globe earth as a 500 year old lie, putting the time of the discovery of the earth's shape around the same time as the start of the heliocentric model of the solar system. Maybe that is based on the myth that Columbus' sailors freaked as they thought they were going to go over the edge.

The other side of this is that there is a community of flat earth debunkers on YouTube that, generally, try to answer the questions and doubts that flat earthers have.

 

[tyrodtom]

I don't think the Bible actually comes out and says the earth is flat.
But in the King James version it says " Spread the gospel to the four corners of the earth" written in the King James era, it used the vernacular of the day.
To me that phrase just means to spread the gospel everywhere, to some one else it might take on a deeper meaning.

Be careful here, because now we've let religion get into the discussion.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Basing one's science on a collection of religious writings is about as sensible as basing one's religion on a bunch of scientific hypotheses.
Modern science based on empiricism cannot control for the supernatural, therefore writes it out of the equation.

 

[wuzak]

I don't think the Bible actually comes out and says the earth is flat.
But in the King James version it says " Spread the gospel to the four corners of the earth" written in the King James era, it used the vernacular of the day.
To me that phrase just means to spread the gospel everywhere, to some one else it might take on a deeper meaning.

Be careful here, because now we've let religion get into the discussion.

I did not say that the bible actually says that the earth is flat - rather that some followers of flat earth believe that the bible says that the earth is flat.

This article disputes the idea that the bible actually says that the earth is flat.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It's gaining traction, especially in the US, because of our poor education system.

 

[fubar57]

 

[GrauGeist]

In the days that the Old Testament was written, scholars were aware that the earth was round.

As far back as 2,250 BC, Egyptian mathematicians had roughly calculated the earth's circumference based on observations and the Greek Pythagoras had written extensively on the earth's shape based on his travels (ca 500 BC). The list of subsequent scholars of antiquity is a long one, who argued that the earth was indeed a sphere. And if anyone's had to suffer through Trigonometry, then they'll be interested to know that spherical trig was originally designed to calculate the distance and direction to Mecca from any point on earth.

Then there was Magellan and other voyagers who circumnavigated the earth and made extensive notations of new constellations and other discoveries which confirmed what was already known.

 

[The Basket]

Flat earthers are safe unless they start acting on their impulses. I can believe I can fly but that's no big deal unless I jump of a cliff to prove it.

The real issue is anti-vaxx which is genuinely dangerous and absolutely scary.

When you are cleverer than the world after watching one hour YouTube video is not only ignorant but delusional.

What people don't know is not a problem but what people think they know is. Mass cult thinking without a shred of real evidence other than feelings is going to send us down many a dark path.

It has killed millions before and will kill millions again.

 

[fubar57]

B.C. is dealing with a rash of measles right now because of these clowns and Alberta just reported two cases yesterday

 

[GrauGeist]

B.C. is dealing with a rash of measles right now because of these clowns and Alberta just reported two cases yesterday

We have three cases of measels just in the past two weeks in this area and a possible 5 more cases in the past two days.
Starting to think we should refer to these idiot "anti-vaxxers" with a more appropriate name of "pro-plaguers"

 

[The Basket]

In ye olde days.... If you said something stupid, your peers would put you out of your misery quickly and advise you of your stupid ways.
But today I can go on to the Internet and find echo chambers which not only agree with me but reinforce even the most extreme of views.
And I can watch videos which spout nonsense as science truth.

Anti Vaxx is truly a plague on our society and the costs will be much highly than believing in flat earth.

Its laughable that we are at the apex of human existence and yet some want us to go back to medieval times.

I would say April fool to such shenanigans but though its 1st April anti vaxxers are not only risking themselves but also us as well. And that is no joke.

 

[The Basket]

One issue I have nowadays is loss of sarcasm and loss of funny.

I read stuff on the Internet or even in print media or on YouTube which is so stupid that it has to be only for comidic effect. But nowadays God knows.

We are so far into the world of 1984 and the lunatics taking over the asylum that the apocalyptic meteor strike will be a blessing.

 

[fubar57]

 

[herman1rg]

A friend advised me that one of his friends was a crazy conspiracy theorist and there was no way of arguing with him.

But you could out crazy him.

So when asked by his conspiracy chum if he believed in the moon landings, his response was,

'you believe there's a moon?'

if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, you must embrace...a larger view of the conspiracy

To which moon are you referring?