The German arrow!

[bobbysocks]

they flew a 2 seat version to neubiberg in the summer of 45 on its way to the uk. it was flown in a mock dogfight with a 51 and while it has a speed advantage it want much of a dogfighter. there is film of this event in one of the home movie reels somewhere. the plane caught fire during flight in 46 but don't know if it crashed in the uk or on the way.

German Aircraft after the War

HOW TO DRAW A CROWD 1945

 

[BiffF15]

Biff - I noticed your avatar is Clay Kinnard's QP-A when he was Deputy CO, then CO before he returned to 355th. He was my Godfather.

If I remember correctly that plane and its story were on the cover of the first Air Classics mag I ever bought (Aug 77)! I think that's one of the coolest paint jobs I've seen! You must have had an interesting house guest or two growing up and interacting with a very cool slice of history!

Cheers,
Biff

 

[BiffF15]

I think the Do-335 is a very cool plane and a different way to answer the call for a heavy fighter. I just wonder how it handled with all that weight at each end. It is / was probably prone to the dynamic overshoots in pitch...

 

[drgondog]

If I remember correctly that plane and its story were on the cover of the first Air Classics mag I ever bought (Aug 77)! I think that's one of the coolest paint jobs I've seen! You must have had an interesting house guest or two growing up and interacting with a very cool slice of history!

Cheers,
Biff

Biff - Clay was a very interesting and charismatic individual - very similar in 'command presence' to Robin Olds. He was nearly deaf after a bad sinus infection when he transferred to the 355th in November 1943. For the next 18 months his Comm team first had to adjust volume to max for the radio - then change the frequency/Db output to increase it further. They were sworn to secrecy. He was promoted to full Colonel in May 1945 and returned to the States - where he failed his physical when he applied for Regular Army commission.

Kinnard and dad both played football (and graduated) at Vanderbilt, both dated the future Dinah Shore although Clay was several years older. Kinnard was a Civil Engineer and held several patents on pre-stressed concrete beams, building and running a successful business around that process.

He passed in 1966 due to a rapid and aggressive brain tumor. We can speculate on the role of 'noise' in that condition. Kinnard's wife Ruth was a long time and well respected Federal Appeals judge and their farm was noted for a strong stable of thoroughbreds in Franklin, TN.

You learn a lot about the guys they flew with when the brown water flows and burnt meat is served.

 

[at6]

I still have a Revell kit in my stash with those markings. Definitely a must build.

 

[davparlr]

The Do 335 was already an obsolete aircraft that was quite fast at lower altitudes. The Germans did a good job of harnessing the power of two engines into a relatively clean air frame. However it was very heavy, about the weight of the B-25A. The other high performance twin, the P-38J, was 3500 lbs lighter though not as powerful. Both late model P-47s, the M&N, were faster than the Do above 25k ft, much faster higher up. Below 25k, the light P-51H was a hot rod. The already cancelled, due to the advent of the jets, XP-72 was an impressive aircraft, which was lighter but equally powerful single engine fighter derived from the P-47 and had a top speed approaching 500 mph. German efforts would have been better served with the Me 262 and using the Ta-152/Fw-190Ds providing field cover.

 

[GrapeJam]

As was the case with all of the German "wonder" weapons. A Tiger could kill 20 Shermans before getting zapped itself and the Germans would still loose the encounter
French ace Pierre Clostermann claimed the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945. In his book The Big Show he describes leading a flight of four Hawker Tempests over northern Germany, when he intercepted a lone Do 335 flying at maximum speed at treetop level. Detecting the British aircraft, the German pilot reversed course to evade. Despite the Tempest's considerable low altitude speed, the RAF fighters were not able to catch up or even get into firing position.
Only one Do 335 survives today. It was captured by Allied forces at the plant on 22 April 1945. The aircraft was test flown from a grass runway at Oberwiesenfeld, near Munich, to Cherbourg, France while escorted by two P-51s. The Do 335 was easily able to out distance the escorting Mustangs and arrived at Cherbourg 45 minutes before the P-51s.

One has to question Cloistermann's account, seeing as according to performance charts, at SL, the Tempest was far faster than the Do 335.

The Do 335 while had very impressive speed at high altitude, was only mediocre to lack lustre at medium and low altitude. And as an interceptor it was hampered by it's extremely poor rate of climb at all altitudes.

Do 335's speed:

Tempest Mk V speed at 12lbs boost:

 

[GregP]

Just goes to show you that aircraft in fight test livery aren't necessarily in the same configuration as a front-line aircraft. Clean, waxed, and a freshly-tuned engine with a good prop are not the same as dirty, chipped paint, dirt and gravel-worn propeller, and an engine that has seen it's best performance some time back.

The museum operates 3 P-51s, 2 D's and 1 A model. One of the P-51Ds can cruise at 2" less MAP than the other one side by side.

 

[pbehn]

were the two Mustang pilots aware they were in a race tht would be discussed 70 years later?

 

[mikewint]

I have seen the Clostermann and 45min quote several times in several sources though that is not definitive.
Pierre Clostermann (Free French) wrote of the Tempest:
Nothing was left undone to give the Tempest a maximum performance at medium and low altitudes. Special auxiliary tanks were designed even, with perspex connecting pipes, to fit under the wings. Quite extraordinary attention was paid to the rivetting, the joints and the surface polish. The result was a superb combat machine.
It had a thoroughbred look and, in spite of the big radiator which gave it an angry and wilful appearance, it was astonishingly slender. It was very heavy, all of seven tons. Thanks to its 2,400 h.p. engine it had a considerable margin of excess power and its acceleration was phenomenal. It was pretty tricky to fly, but its performance more than made up for it: at 3,000 feet, at economical cruising on one third power (950 h.p.) with two 45-gallon auxiliary tanks, 310 m.p.h. on the clock, i.e. a true air speed of 320 m.p.h.; at fast cruising speed, at half power (1,425 h.p.) without auxiliary tanks, 350 m.p.h. on the clock, i.e. a true air speed of nearly 400 m.p.h.; Maximum speed straight and level with + 13 boost and 3,850 revs.: 430 m.p.h. on the clock, i.e. a true airspeed of 440 m.p.h.

In late 1944, the Do 335A-1 superseded the A-0 on the production line. This was the initial production model, similar to the A-0 but with the uprated DB603E-1 engines and two underwing hard points for additional bombs or drop tanks. Delivery commenced in January 1945. Capable of a maximum speed of 474 mph at 21,325 ft with MW 50 boost, or 426 mph without boost, and able to climb to 26,250 ft in only 14.5 minutes, the Do 335A-1 could easily outpace any Allied fighters it encountered. It could also carry a bomb load of 1100 lb for 900 miles.

 

[GrauGeist]

Best speed was at different heights, & the Do 335 did appear to have a fast cruise/good range.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945 - 1865.html

As noted, a determined pursuit by an Allied pilot running 150 grade juice in his P-51 or Tempest, might reward him,
esp' if he "went through the gate' boost-wise & with the Do335 prone to having issues overheating the rear engine.

Even the German turbo-jets ( Me 163 rocket-jet had short endurance) were run down in this way.

Me262 could not be caught by ANY piston powered aircraft in WWII, while either in a climb or in level flight.

 

[GrauGeist]

Wrong again G-G, check post #73, P.4 of the 'Fastest Mil-spec piston...' thread, & the gun-cam does not lie.

The Me262 could not be caught by any piston powered fighter while in level flight or in a climb.

 

[GrauGeist]

Repeating yourself does not make you any less wrong G-G, I'd reckon it likely, there are instances of P-51's doing it too.

I repeat myself because this is the case.
Once the Me262 turns to fight, it becomes disadvantaged.

when it's taking off or landing, it's at a disadvantage, but while it's in level flight and above cruise speed approaching max OR in a climb, it cannot be caught.

Period.

 

[GrauGeist]

You do realize the Me 262's primitive Jumo turbines were heat-limited, & so was time at Vmax.
If the Allied pursuit planes kept the 262 in sight 'til he backed off the gas, he'd be caught. Fact.

They had 80 minute cruise time, 30 minute combat time and since they were point defense, that meant drawing the pursuers deeper into enemy territory beyond the point of no return. Fact.

 

[wuzak]

Time at Vmax was limited for piston engine aircraft too.

I suspect that the cruise performance of the Me 262 was comfortably fast enough to make interception by Allied piston engine aircraft unlikely in a straight line.

The Rate of Climb of the Me 262 doesn't seem to spectacular, but I'm guessing the speed at maximum climb rate was somewhat higher than the best Allied climbers.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf

 

[GrauGeist]

Time at Vmax was limited for piston engine aircraft too.

I suspect that the cruise performance of the Me 262 was comfortably fast enough to make interception by Allied piston engine aircraft unlikely in a straight line.

The Rate of Climb of the Me 262 doesn't seem to spectacular, but I'm guessing the speed at maximum climb rate was somewhat higher than the best Allied climbers.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf

Worst thing an Me262 pilot could do is try and dive away from an attacker, especially a P-47.

 

[GrauGeist]

If facts are of interest to you G-G, accept the fact that the record shows Tempests chased a 262 WFO for 50 miles & shot it down.

Glad you took the time to google it.

There are several reasons why an Me262 could be hunted down and killed by a Tempest.

One, it had battle damage and was suffering performance.

Two, it was running low on fuel.

Three, either one of it's engines had reached max. time and was deteriorating.

Let's look at the Tempest's top speed: 432mph or 435mph depending on altitude.

Now the Me262: 559mph

So now let's rethink that that Tempest superiority, shall we?

 

[GrauGeist]

Wrong...the Me262 had a "not to exceed" dive speed.

The Me262 was mach .86 max.

Google it.

I know you're a total newbie to the forums and trying REAL hard to be impressive to the forum members, but take it down a notch.

 

[GrauGeist]

Nevermind your wiki data G-G, find the gun-cam footage..

I don't wiki, boy

 

[wuzak]

Wrong again G-G, Me 262 Mach capability was much higher than a P-47, which in fact needed dive flaps to remain in control.

I think the capability of an aircraft in a dive is often confused. The limiting speed or Mach number is often used, whereas, in fact, it is the acceleration in a dive that counts most.

The Spitfire was proven, by tests, to have a very high Mach number for the day, higher than the P-51 in fact. But the P-51 was considered a better diver because it accelerated in the dive better, pulling away from the Spitfire.

I'd be surprised that the Me 262 didn't have at least as good acceleration in a dive as the P-47. Considering it didn't have the big pprop up front to slow it down.

The only thing I can think of why that would be the case would be the time it takes to accelerate the engines up to full power.