The greatest fighter that never made it

davparlr · Jan 22, 2009

syscom3 said:
I think you mean the wingtip came off, not the whole wing.

That would have been one heckofa aileron effectiveness!!

There was no propeller driven fighter that would have changed the war. Toward the end of the war, all the opposing forces had powerful engines and advance aerodynamics. Aircraft on both sides had approached the upper limit of airspeed, about 500 mph, and altitude. Any threatening propeller powered aircraft could have been quickly answered by the opposing side.

So that leaves jets.

After the Allies were established in continental Europe, there was no fighter, propeller or jet, which could help Germany. The Germans already had the fighter that could change the war. They only needed to have it in quantity, with trained crews, and with adequate support, in early 1944. No other listed aircraft would have provided significant advantage over the Me-262.

So, the only fighter that could make a huge difference was the Me-262, in force, in early '44.

otftch · Jan 22, 2009

I re-read that three times to get it right.Still missed wingtips.Thanks for the correction.
Ed

SoD Stitch · Jan 22, 2009

otftch said:
The Bearcat climbed like "a bat out of h....." and was super maneuverable.My dad was on the team (USN) that evaluated new aircraft. on one flight, when
only one wing came off because of the explosive bolt failure,the pilot was still able to land safely.I once read ,but cannot verify,that in tests against a P-51 when the '51 reached altitude the Bearcat had already made two firing passes.It was finnally something that could beat the Japanese at thier own game.
Ed

I also read a possibly apochryphal story about a Bearcat pilot shortly after the War ended who wanted to show what a Bearcat could do vs. a P-51. He was at an airshow (I believe; it might've been a testing facility), and the P-51 was ahead of him in the run-up area at the end of the runway, about to take off. The Bearcat pilot pulled up to the run-up line and waited until the P-51 was about halfway down the runway, when he throttled up to WEP and took off after the P-51. IIRC, the Bearcat was able to catch up with the P-51 by the end of the runway and pass the Mustang like it was standing still. I tried Googling the story, but I can't seem to find it. Does that ring a bell with anyone here?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 22, 2009

drgondog said:
How old are you?

Not "open to reason" because Dick Bong failed to arm the emergency fuel pump (which was there to solve a known problem), lost the primary and then killed himself trying to time the ejection with his rolling P-80 - a la Kinchloe in the F-104A? You think his P-80 had it in for Bong and elected to 'piss him off by failing'??

How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..

Nomination for post of the year! Thanks Bill!

SoD Stitch · Jan 22, 2009

Soren said:
Since this is about a/c which didn't make it into the war, the Go-229 is definitely a candidate and the He-162C D were both really promising designs as-well. Another candidate would be the Jumo 004E equipped Me-262 which was very close to becoming a reality in WW2, the engine being ready by the time the war ended, and it would've easily outperformed any Allied project in the works by that time.

I WAS going to vote for the Go 229, but I believe they would've run into some lateral stability issues with the a/c. Indeed, it was potentially the fastest aircraft of the '40's, especially for '45, due to it's exceptionally clean airframe, but there were no lateral control surfaces, so I believe that uncontrollable lateral instability would've raised it's ugly head, and killed quite a few pilots before a solution was devised. IMO, the issue of lateral instability hadn't really been satisfactorily solved until the advent of high-speed SAS's and fly-by-wire controls, as used on the B-2.

drgondog · Jan 22, 2009

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Nomination for post of the year! Thanks Bill!

Chris - I really didn't mean to thump his nose - it just struck me as 'pouting' over an inanimate object - I mean, get mad at Lockheed for building perhaps the best USAAF airplane of WWII and the fighter that ushered in the dawn of a new age for US airpower.

Clay - I apologise for any perceived insult.. I'm just a cranky 'old guy' and your comment struck me as 'odd'. Any one that picks Bobby Lane for an avatar has to be cool.

davparlr · Jan 22, 2009

SoD Stitch said:
I WAS going to vote for the Go 229, but I believe they would've run into some lateral stability issues with the a/c. Indeed, it was potentially the fastest aircraft of the '40's, especially for '45, due to it's exceptionally clean airframe, but there were no lateral control surfaces, so I believe that uncontrollable lateral instability would've raised it's ugly head, and killed quite a few pilots before a solution was devised. IMO, the issue of lateral instability hadn't really been satisfactorily solved until the advent of high-speed SAS's and fly-by-wire controls, as used on the B-2.

I am sure that there were lateral control surfaces present, probably split flaps on the wing tip ala B-35/49, however, lateral stability was zero. I agree that there was problems not known. The aircraft had not undergone stall testing, stability testing, single engine performance, etc. I think the plane, while very advanced, was three to five years and many modifications away from operations.

Clay_Allison · Jan 23, 2009

drgondog said:
How old are you?

Not "open to reason" because Dick Bong failed to arm the emergency fuel pump (which was there to solve a known problem), lost the primary and then killed himself trying to time the ejection with his rolling P-80 - a la Kinchloe in the F-104A? You think his P-80 had it in for Bong and elected to 'piss him off by failing'??

How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..

It would have been awesome for the country if the Ace of Aces had survived the war, being killed as a test pilot on an aircraft that was almost immediately surpassed by the F-86 just seemed like a total waste.

I'm just admitting that I'm prejudiced. I still think the meteor is a better plane. Going Twin Engine on a new type of aircraft IE the Gloster Meteor and the Me 262 seems so much safer and saner.

Soundbreaker Welch? · Jan 23, 2009

Agree. Though the F-86 only had one engine, and it truly was a marvel.

Sadly, another pilot less well known than Bong, George S. Welch, died testing the F-100 Super Sabre.
Maybe it's bad luck why several WWII USAAF veterans died testing new aircraft.

About the Go 229, doesn't it look like something from outer space? I bet if it had flown over the battlefields of WWII, people would have thought they were seeing aliens!

Clay_Allison · Jan 23, 2009

Test pilots must be the bravest, craziest guys on earth. It's not "If" one kills you, it's "when".

By the way, I love the Westland Whirlwind, with better engines it would have been awesome and really changed the course of the war.

Soren · Jan 23, 2009

Regarding the Go-299,

The lateral stability issues were actually solved to a satisfying degree, BUT lateral stability wasn't as good as with conventional a/c ofcourse, the flyingwing design tempting to slide in strong side winds. But nonetheless the Horten team had solved the problem to a satisfying degree.

Several flight handling tests had been made with the Go-229 airframe, both without engines and with a piston engined and finally a jet engined version, and it performed very well in turns (it was infact that was its strong side, it could turn on a dime and exhibited very nice stalling characteristic) and in flight in general. But landing and taking off in hard wind conditions was going to be a problem, and it would definitely require well trained pilots to properly operate the a/c, something the LW was in a serious lack of in late 44 to 45.

The Horten IX V2, which undertook two very successfull testflights demonstrating great handling qualities in maneuvers. However during the third test flight which was meant to test the top speed, where speeds of well over 800 km/h was reached, disaster struck as one engine failed, the a/c crashing and killing the pilot:

So the a/c was definitely not a long way from becoming operational, but the lack of properly trained pilots would've proven just as big a problem as it did with all other a/c in service. You can have the best equipment in the world, but it means nothing if you don't have personnel which can properly use it.

Venganza · Jan 23, 2009

Soren said:
You can have the best equipment in the world, but it means nothing if you don't have personnel which can properly use it.

Well put, Soren. I've always thought about what you said above, when the discussion on these threads turns to what if the Germans had built this plane or they had built that plane, what would have happened. I don't think it would have ultimately mattered what planes they had in 1945 - they didn't have the fuel and you can't build experienced pilots.

Venganza

syscom3 · Jan 23, 2009

That would have been one heckofa aileron effectiveness!!

The Bearcat originally had a safety feature where the wingtips that broke off under a certain G-Load.

I dont know if that feature made it to production though.

drgondog · Jan 23, 2009

Soundbreaker Welch? said:
Agree. Though the F-86 only had one engine, and it truly was a marvel.

Sadly, another pilot less well known than Bong, George S. Welch, died testing the F-100 Super Sabre.
Maybe it's bad luck why several WWII USAAF veterans died testing new aircraft.

Fighter aircraft of the late 40-60's timeframe were inherently dangerous. As an air force brat I knew many friends whose fathers dies flying F-100/F-89/F-86D/F-101/F-104. Not to mention all the guys at Edwards.

I watched my father narrowly escape from an F-86D in 1952 at Eglin, as my mother and I watched from control tower at Eglin Main.

That is why I reacted a little bit to Clay. Guys died because of the aircraft and guys died because they made mistakes - but guys died all the time.

drgondog · Jan 23, 2009

syscom3 said:
The Bearcat originally had a safety feature where the wingtips that broke off under a certain G-Load.

I dont know if that feature made it to production though.

Syscom - it did. The Bearcat was designed to a lower limit load (7.5 g) than the other conventional fighters (except P-51H).

I believe that feature was removed when a ground crew was killed as well as a couple of F8F lost in pullout in bombing passes.

The wing tips were designed to blow before the main spar theoretically failed, reducing the aero distribution at extreme outboard location. Strange concept

SoD Stitch · Jan 23, 2009

drgondog said:
Syscom - it did. The Bearcat was designed to a lower limit load (7.5 g) than the other conventional fighters (except P-51H).

I believe that feature was removed when a ground crew was killed as well as a couple of F8F lost in pullout in bombing passes.

The wing tips were designed to blow before the main spar theoretically failed, reducing the aero distribution at extreme outboard location. Strange concept

Another problem that came about because of the "detachable" wingtips was that sometimes one wingtip would detach and the other wouldn't, sending the a/c into a quick roll; if you were at altitude, this wasn't a problem, but low down it was.

Waynos · Jan 24, 2009

Test pilots died all over the world when pushing the boundaries. I have the books of a few who survived such as Lithgow, Henshaw, Quill, Beaumont etc and they all have their tragic stories in them as well as the triumphs of the individuals.

Possibly one of the most infamous events is when John Derry of De Havilland died when his DH 110 (the proto-Sea Vixen) broke up in the air at the Farnborough Air Show killing many spectators too. Incredibly the show went on and despite seeing the death of his friend only moments earlier the great Neville Duke took off immediately and displayed the Hunter prototype, remarkable breed.

renrich · Jan 25, 2009

There was a rather famous pilot out of Gunnison, Colorado, named Rocky Warren who did a lot of flying all around the world. I knew him fairly well and he told me one day that each pilot got a sack of chances. Each time you took off you reached into the sack and threw out a chance and when you took off in bad weather or at night you threw out several chances. One day you would reach in and there were no more chances.

The greatest fighter that never made it

Which figher would have made the most difference if able to see widespread combat?

Spiteful

Tempest II

DH Hornet

Ta 152 (all versions)

Do 335

He 162

Go 229

P-51H

P-82

F7F

F8F

P-80

A7M

J8M

La-11

Senior Master Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Banned

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Banned

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

Senior Airman

Pacific Historian

Major

Major

Banned

Staff Sergeant

Chief Master Sergeant

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