The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
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- #22
Dave, the Lanc doesn't have the range to fly from Tinian. Okinawa would be the only realistic option. RAF Tiger Force was looking at Okinawa as a base for ops with Lincolns and Lancs, but the A bombs were dropped before this plan got underway.
Tiger Force (air) - Wikipedia
The other problem with using the Lanc and indeed the Lincoln as nuclear bombers is the fact they could only carry the Little Boy. Fat Man was, well, too fat. This severely limits the flexibility of the mission. Fat Man ws ordered into production, Little Boy was initially unique, although after the war production on a limited scale was undertaken, but not to the same numbers as Fat Man. Also, timewise, the Lincoln entered service in August 1945 with 57 Sqn receiving 3 of them (!), so that rules it out of the equation if the original timeline of this is to be honoured.
Tiger Force (air) - Wikipedia
The other problem with using the Lanc and indeed the Lincoln as nuclear bombers is the fact they could only carry the Little Boy. Fat Man was, well, too fat. This severely limits the flexibility of the mission. Fat Man ws ordered into production, Little Boy was initially unique, although after the war production on a limited scale was undertaken, but not to the same numbers as Fat Man. Also, timewise, the Lincoln entered service in August 1945 with 57 Sqn receiving 3 of them (!), so that rules it out of the equation if the original timeline of this is to be honoured.
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- #23
Like I said, according to the figures above, at MTOW and the corresponding fuel consumption figures, range decreases significantly. Flying 2,400 miles at MTOW means no big bombs in the Pacific. Your load carrying capability shrinks to make up for fuel load. From Okinawa to Nagasaki return is around 1,000 miles.
But again, as you have ignored the situation, you'd be flying at an altitude of 15,000 ft at a speed of under 180 mph to get the best out of your performance, which is crazy in 1945.
Kevin J
Banned
If I was looking for an alternative bomber to use then I would use the Vickers Windsor.
Vickers Windsor - Wikipedia
It was pressurised and had a range of 2890 miles with 8000 lbs of bombs in the Merlin 65 powered variant. There were better higher altitude Merlin engines in the 70 series that could have been used if necessary. It had a remote control rear facing armament of 4 20 mm cannon. So you could fly from Tinian, bomb Japan, land at Iwo Jima to refuel and then return to Tinian which is a range of about 2400 miles on the first leg of the journey IIRC.
Vickers Windsor - Wikipedia
It was pressurised and had a range of 2890 miles with 8000 lbs of bombs in the Merlin 65 powered variant. There were better higher altitude Merlin engines in the 70 series that could have been used if necessary. It had a remote control rear facing armament of 4 20 mm cannon. So you could fly from Tinian, bomb Japan, land at Iwo Jima to refuel and then return to Tinian which is a range of about 2400 miles on the first leg of the journey IIRC.
Kevin J
Banned
Using a Lancaster would be daft when the Japs can get to the altitude needed to intercept them. You need a pressurised high altitude bomber like the Windsor which the Jap fighters can't rise to, to intercept.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
In my limited reading on the subject, Okinawa was not a good choice because it was still too close to Japanese airpower. The atomic bomber and it's support structure had to be totally safe from enemy harassment or attack. So in reality I believe as a base for atomic attack, Okinawa is out of the picture, you have to do your calculations based on flying from the Tinian airfields.
Shortround6
Major General
If the Lancaster or Lincoln was suitable (possible is different) for dropping atomic weapons the RAF sure wasted a lot of time and effort in the early 1950s with the Boeing Washington
The US "loaned" 88 B-29s to the British starting in 1950. They equipped 8 bomber squadrons and one electronic recon squadron.
They were replaced by Canberra's and the first British V bombers.
Most of the aircraft the British got were end of war production that had gone into storage upon completion. There was no big money deal (Boeing had been paid years earlier) and the majority of the aircraft were returned to the US as British built planes took over. This was during the Korean war so nobody in the US was looking for any "make work" deals either.
The US "loaned" 88 B-29s to the British starting in 1950. They equipped 8 bomber squadrons and one electronic recon squadron.
They were replaced by Canberra's and the first British V bombers.
Most of the aircraft the British got were end of war production that had gone into storage upon completion. There was no big money deal (Boeing had been paid years earlier) and the majority of the aircraft were returned to the US as British built planes took over. This was during the Korean war so nobody in the US was looking for any "make work" deals either.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Right, but as I mentioned before, Okinawa was still within reach of Japanese attack elements.
A considerable amount of shipping at Okinawa came under suicide attack, both by sea and by air as late as August '45 - USS La Grange, 13 August, two kamikazes inflicted serious damage.
In addition, airfields were attacked, both conventionally and by Kamikaze aircraft well into summer.
There was also Operation Tsurugi, which was a very real threat right to the end of the war and included a somewhat successful attack on Okinawa in May by the Gerestsu Airborn Unit (of the 1st Raiding Regiment).
soulezoo
Senior Airman
I could be off here, but I recall the altitude and speed were critical factors for the aircraft dropping the bomb to get away from the blast shock wave. At 15,000 feet and 175 mph, might this put a Lanc in jeopardy?
Just thinking out loud here.
Just thinking out loud here.
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 4,846
- May 13, 2018
Exactly. All this discussion of weight is un important. The 509th practised the wing over and high speed get away for nearly a year. How would any of the Lanc mods or the lincoln or even the B-32 have handled these maneouvers from altitude and the shock wave the way the B-29 did?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 4,846
- May 13, 2018
The B-32"s pressure system was crap. That's why it was removed and the aircraft planned for low level missions. The structure was weak or light and when bellied in broke in three pieces.
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
What im getting from this verry interesting discussion is like with most things the answer is not so cut and dried.
Seems like it lies somewhere in the middle.
Could the Lancaster have done the job nearly as well as the B29? Sounds like not but if there were no other option and push came to shove could the Lancaster have done it albeit with more risk to the crew and mission in general? Sounds like yes.
Seems like it lies somewhere in the middle.
Could the Lancaster have done the job nearly as well as the B29? Sounds like not but if there were no other option and push came to shove could the Lancaster have done it albeit with more risk to the crew and mission in general? Sounds like yes.
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 4,846
- May 13, 2018
Refer to two books on the B-32. Both are a good read and both are named "Consolidated B-32 Dominator". The long read is by William Wolf and is comprehensive. The short read is by Harding & Long. Simply put, it is really a good thing we did not have to depend on the 32 and didn't have the 29. A interesting side note is the Convair model 39 was to be their entry to airlines competing with the Connie and Boeing and Douglas. Two were built and eventually used by the Navy for about a year. I still haven't found accurate dimensions .
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 4,846
- May 13, 2018
The allies, although I am not in their long range plans, Planned the invasion of Kyushu Nov of 45. That would have given closer bases. Back in 1960 I read parts of the 12 vol. (I think) which gave the plans f;or the invasions of each island. The last was scheduled for spring 1947 if memory serves. If the Japanese had not quit and the Emperor told them to stop fighting, there would have been problems and encounters for years. The atomic weapons prevented many casualties. Consider the PTSD if young 18 year old allied soldiers had to kill young boys, girls, and old people armed with sharp sticks and swords. I am glad that Japan is today an ally and not still an enemy.
The B-29 was able to exploit the "High Fast" corridor. Yet the Japanese fighters could labor their way up there, but it was only worth making the effort for a formation. They pretty much had given up on the weather and photo birds. Low and slow would have been a suicide mission with a really irreplaceable weapon. Failure, of even one of the missions would have seriously impacted the effect which finally persuaded surrender.
The B-29 was long considered to be developed into the delivery vehicle. I suppose in what if's that some other plane would have been developed, wait a bit and B-36??
The B-29 was long considered to be developed into the delivery vehicle. I suppose in what if's that some other plane would have been developed, wait a bit and B-36??
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The only B-32 that crashed due to equipment failure, was 42-108472 who's nose-gear collapsed during a rough landing.
And yes, the B-32's pressurized system didn't work, but then again, how would that stop the B-32 from conducting it's mission?
The B-17 and B-24 could operate at the same high altitudes and they weren't pressurized...
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 4,846
- May 13, 2018
The B-29 had been envisioned as the delivery vehicle from it's beginning. Before the tide of war turned in Europe, that conflict was considered a target before Japan. I can not put my hands on the source, as Katrina caused a move and my books are no longer on shelves in my house but stacked in the shop, two B-29s were flown to the 8th AF in Britain for alleged mechanic familiarization. The purpose was to allow German recon to see them. Not long after, the Germans began high altitude development of recip engined fighters. This didn't hit me until I read the Encyclopedia of Russian aircraft and found their tests of Me-262 and Jumo 004B didn't get enough air at altitude.
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