The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945

[GrauGeist]

The idea for the B-29 goes back to the late 30's and came into being in 1940. It became accelerated when the need arose that the US needed to have the ability to attack German targets in Europe and Britain if Britain failed to hold the line.
The B-19 would have been an ideal candidate, but was plagued by delays and assumed obsolescence amd the B-29 project over-took it.

In regards to an Atomic delivery platform, the Manhattan Project got underway full-scale in 1942, two years after B-29 construction began and when the Atomic project started, they had only a vague idea of what form the bomb would be. It would be in 1943, that they first started testing bomb shapes.

And for the record, the Me262 had a max. ceiling of 37,000 feet, and could have easily overtaken and downed a B-29. Even the Ar234 was capable of an altitude of 33,000 feet. The B-29s that visited England in 1944 and the accompanying misinformation ruse, were aimed at demoralizing the German public - keep in mind that no Allied bombers had encountered the Me262 yet, but they would in a few short months...

 

[Graeme]

So, could a Lancaster be used and was it really considered for dropping nuclear weapons against Japan?

According to James Gibson - History of the US Nuclear Arsenal - Bison 1989.....yes.

 

[special ed]

A couple of quotes from the Wolf B-32 book. "Even after the post-Pearl Harbor Japanese successes American long term air strategy focused on Europe. Both the B-29 and B-32 to be deployed to Europe. AWPD-41 (15 Dec 41 and AWPD-42(9 Sep 42) After which, they would be transferred to Pacific bases." In Feb 45 acting Chief of Air Staff Brig. Timberlake stated" The B-32 in its present form is not an acceptable bomber." Lt Gen kenney overruled him because of time and money invested, and because the B-29 had already been sent to the Pacific. By August 45 the first B-32 units were sent to Okinawa but enroute The Atom bombs were dropped.

 

[special ed]

Those 1946 training flights in Alaska would have been for possible Russian intervention as the was with Japan was finished by then.

 

[nuuumannn]

Right, but as I mentioned before, Okinawa was still within reach of Japanese attack elements.

Yup, which makes the time period of mid 1945 completely unrealistic. Tiger Force was just not ready by that time and the Lanc was just not a good choice from a performance angle, which meant that Okinawa was likely the only choice of base.

 

[nuuumannn]

According to James Gibson - History of the US Nuclear Arsenal - Bison 1989.....yes.

Hmmm interesting. Would like to know more specifics about this, such as, which bomb was it meant to carry and how - we know that the US wanted the same bomb crutches that were fitted to the Lanc for carrying Tall Boy for carrying Thin Man, so was it Thin Man that was to be carried - only choice, really, and what of targets? Which targets did they specify for the Lanc?

 

[wuzak]

Hmmm interesting. Would like to know more specifics about this, such as, which bomb was it meant to carry and how - we know that the US wanted the same bomb crutches that were fitted to the Lanc for carrying Tall Boy for carrying Thin Man, so was it Thin Man that was to be carried - only choice, really, and what of targets? Which targets did they specify for the Lanc?

As I said before, the size and shape of the Thin Man bomb was problematic for the B-29, but not the Lancaster.

You say that Thin Man was the only choice, ignoring that Little Boy was similar in size to the 4,000lb HC "cookie" which was dropped by the Lancaster by the thousand.

Fat Man would have been problematic for the Lancaster only in that it would have swung in the breeze.

Consideration for the Lancaster probably never got to the point where targets were planned.

And Thin Man never really worked, so was cancelled.

 

[wuzak]

Hmmm interesting. Would like to know more specifics about this, such as, which bomb was it meant to carry and how - we know that the US wanted the same bomb crutches that were fitted to the Lanc for carrying Tall Boy for carrying Thin Man, so was it Thin Man that was to be carried - only choice, really, and what of targets? Which targets did they specify for the Lanc?

According to Wiki, the bomb release mechanisms used to hold the Thin Man in the B-29 were faulty, so British type bomb systems were adopted.

 

[nuuumannn]

You say that Thin Man was the only choice, ignoring that Little Boy was similar in size to the 4,000lb HC "cookie" which was dropped by the Lancaster by the thousand.

I'm not ignoring that the Lancaster might have been able to carry Little Boy, but was it really considered, is my point, and if it was, I'd like to know more. At the time the decision was being made about the Lanc being a nuclear bomber, what ordnance was being considered? Can you provide any evidence that it could actually carry it other than that it might be suitable because it looks and weighs about right? Evidence is key here, not just hypothesising because it looks right.

 

[wuzak]

What was the impediment to carrying Little Boy in a Lancaster?

No, I don't think the Lancaster was seriously considered beyond the initial bomb (Thin Man) and probably not after a B-29 was successfully modified to carry that shape (the first Silverplate B-29).

FWIW, all the subsequent Silverplate B-29s used the British single point release mechanism, as used for dropping Tallboys.

 

[nuuumannn]

What was the impediment to carrying Little Boy in a Lancaster?

Could you read what I said, wuzak? Did I say there was impediment to it? I want evidence that it was considered, not just hypothesis based on shape and weight.

 

[wuzak]

The original questions were: "So, could a Lancaster be used and was it really considered for dropping nuclear weapons against Japan?"

The answers to those were Yes and Yes.

But it was only seriously considered for Thin Man, and only because the size and shape of the bomb required significant modifications to the B-29.

It was not considered for Little Boy or Fat Man because B-29s could comfortably carry them in the forward bomb bay, with the addition of a new rack and release mechanism.

I never said that it was considered for those, but I did say that it was possible.

 

[wuzak]

Could you read what I said, wuzak? Did I say there was impediment to it? I want evidence that it was considered, not just hypothesis based on shape and weight.

This is the part I was responding to when I asked "What was the impediment to carrying Little Boy in a Lancaster? "

Can you provide any evidence that it could actually carry it other than that it might be suitable because it looks and weighs about right? Evidence is key here, not just hypothesising because it looks right.

So here's the evidence.
Little Boy was dropped from the same mechanisms used in Lancasters to drop Tallboys.
Little Boy was about 10" (254mm) smaller in diameter than Tallboy and quite a bit shorter.

Little Boy weighed in at 9,700lb compared to Tallboy's 12,000lb.

 

[nuuumannn]

Thanks wuzak. I would like more information about the Lanc being considered; it seems to have eluded virtually everyone whose written a biography about the Lancaster, possibly because of a dearth of information. It would also be interesting to find out what those who proposed it had in mind for targets.

So here's the evidence.
Little Boy was dropped from the same mechanisms used in Lancasters to drop Tallboys.
Little Boy was about 10" (254mm) smaller in diameter than Tallboy and quite a bit shorter.

Evidence it might be, but it is purely circumstantial evidence however and does not in any way prove that it was actually considered. Sorry. I would like first hand evidence, not just circumstantial evidence. I see what you're doing, though and I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just that I want more than someone's hypothesis as to why it might have fit.

 

[nuuumannn]

If we know for certain that Little Boy was actually considered for carriage by Lancasters, that will give us a bit better idea as to what might have been a legitimate target. Little Boy was bigger than Thin Man, which would have had an impact on the Lancaster's range etc; that we know from the figures provided here already, so what did those guys who considered the Lancaster have in mind for its use?

Little Boy was not intended on being put into production initially. Fat Man was to be the production bomb, as it was, although after the war, Little Boy was put into limited production. What that says about considerations about its strategic use during the war is open to question.

Little Boy - Wikipedia

 

[nuuumannn]

In a book tucked away in my library and covered in dust, called The Making of The Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes is written the following:

"Norman F Ramsay, a tall young Columbia physicist, the son of a general, served under Parsons [William. S 'Deke'] as group leader for delivery: for devising a way to deliver the bombs to their targets and drop them. In June he contacted the US Air Force [sic] to identify a combat aircraft that would carry a 17-foot bomb. "As a result of this survey", Ramsey writes, "it was apparent that the B-29 was the only United States aircraft in which such a bomb could be conveniently carried internally, and even this plane would require considerable modification so that the bomb could extend into both front and rear bomb bays... Except for the British Lancaster, all other aircraft would require such a bomb to be carried externally."

The book continues with a telling statement as to the use of a foreign aircraft for such a role, what was discussed in the other thread:

"The Air Force [sic] was not about to allow a historic new weapon of war to be introduced to the world in a British aircraft, but the B-29 Superfortress was a new design still plagued with serious problems. The first service test model had not yet flown when Ramsay began his aircraft survey in June; a flight test model had crashed into a Seattle packing house in February and killed the plane's entire test crew and nineteen packing-house workers."

The book then goes on to describing the first test drops of a Thin Man shape from an Avenger.

So, was the Lancaster actually considered, or was it a just a suggestion because the bomb could be carried internally? It does appear that it was only a suggestion because of the latter, rather than that it was in serious consideration as a nuclear bomber. It seems the importance behind the Lancaster being suggested is that it could carry the bomb internally, which, suggests that it was probably not seriously considered for carrying Little Boy, which at this point in time did not exist. It came after Thin Man and arose as a result of being able to shorten the firing gun, thus reducing the overall length of the bomb from 17 ft to 10 ft.

Again however, these are just my thoughts having just read this passage. Any further information is welcome.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Prior to the decision to use the B-29, military officials had given serious consideration to using the British Avro Lancaster to deliver the weapon, which the Royal Air Force had used to deliver the 5-ton Tallboy bombs developed in 1944. The Avro Lancaster would have required much less modification, but Major General Leslie Groves, the commander of the Manhattan Project, and General Henry H. Arnold, the Chief of United States Army Air Forces, wished to use an American plane."

The first B-29 arrived at Wright Field, Ohio, on December 2 and underwent extensive modification to the bomb bay. To accommodate the length of the gun-type shaped weapon (Little Boy was originally supposed to be approximately 17 ft, but was later reduced to 10 ft), engineers removed the B-29's four bomb bay doors and the fuselage section between the bays and replaced them with a single 33 ft bomb bay. This modification project resulted in the removal of all the rear gun stations. Each plane was designed to carry either type of device; either Little Boy type in the forward bay or Fat Man type in the rear. New bomb suspensions and bracing were also implemented and separate twin-release mechanisms were mounted in each bay. Engineers also placed motion picture cameras in the bays to record the test of the new release mechanism.

The modifications, which were done completely by hand, were extensive and time-consuming. The process required more than 6000 man-hours of labor and the first B-29 prototype was not complete until February 20, 1944.

Project Silverplate

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Silverplate Fleet

After successful bomb shape testing, a production phase of Silverplate B-29s was ordered on August 22, 1944. By mid-October the first three Silverplate B-29s were delivered to the USAAF and flown to Wendover Army Airfield, Utah. A new crew position, called the "weaponeer station", was established in the cockpit with a panel to monitor the release and detonation of the bomb during the actual combat drops. Fourteen production aircraft were assigned to the 393rd Bomb Squadron and three to the 216th AAF Base Unit for bomb drop testing to be conducted at Wendover.

The USAAF continued to improve and modify the Silverplate series throughout 1945. The final wartime Silverplates incorporated all technical improvements to B-29 aircraft, as well as the final series of Silverplate modifications that included fuel-injected engines, reversible-pitch propellers, and pneumatic actuators for rapid opening and closing of bomb bay doors. Engineers were also able to significantly reduce the weight of the aircraft by removing all gun turrets and armor plating. These B-29s represented a significant increase in performance over the standard variants.

 

[nuuumannn]

"Prior to the decision to use the B-29, military officials had given serious consideration to using the British Avro Lancaster to deliver the weapon, which the Royal Air Force had used to deliver the 5-ton Tallboy bombs developed in 1944. The Avro Lancaster would have required much less modification, but Major General Leslie Groves, the commander of the Manhattan Project, and General Henry H. Arnold, the Chief of United States Army Air Forces, wished to use an American plane."

Superb. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after. I'd like to see more information on what discussions they had, though.

 

[nuuumannn]

(Little Boy was originally supposed to be approximately 17 ft, but was later reduced to 10 ft),

This is slightly misleading. The 17 foot bomb was Thin Man and Little Boy followed after the lack of success of the former.