The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945

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RCAFson said:
It's not interesting at all and bears no relevance to the topic at hand, because it is predicated on the assumption that the B-29 is not available as an A-bomb delivery platform during WW2.
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My point being, and not well made, that if the Lanc had so much potential why didn't it get developed for and used by the RAF post war.

Cheers,
Biff
 
BiffF15 said:
My point being, and not well made, that if the Lanc had so much potential why didn't it get developed for and used by the RAF post war.

Cheers,
Biff
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The potential the Lancaster had was fully developed in WW2 and it was capable, in WW2, of safely (out of fatal blast radius) dropping available A-bombs on Japanese targets, whilst operating from Tinian. Ditto for Germany from the UK. The Lincoln could push the envelope a bit more.

Both the Lancaster and Lincoln saw post war combat service with the RAF. However dropping a low yield A-bomb on an island like Japan with numerous coastal cities, is not the same as penetrating deep into Warsaw Pact airspace to hit the USSR with higher yield weapons, where a robust GCI air-defense network could be expected. The tactics used by the B-29 against Japan would have been suicidal against the USSR, however the relative abundance of atomic weapons by ~1947 meant that squadron sized attacks could be launched and thus achieve a fair probability (better at night) of at least some aircraft surviving until weapon release. However, once bomb yield passes ~50KT, I'm not sure the B-29 could safely deliver it either, even if it could penetrate hostile airspace.

As an aside, AFAIK, RAF B-29s never carried atomic weapons.
 
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And what years do you think the Warsaw Pact had this in place? Maybe by the end of the Korean War.

The Silverplate B-29s remained in service until the early 50s. It was recognized they were no longer a viable weapon and other aircraft replaced them, in the same manner Bomber Command recognized the Lancaster and Lincoln wouldn't cut it in the post war years, so the Washington was used until Canberra, and V bombers entered service.
 

The Soviet air force was certainly far stronger, in say 1947, than the IJAAF was in 1945.

AFAIK, the Washington never flew a combat sortie whilst the Lincoln was flying combat missions until the mid 1950s (actually 1958), in Malaya.
 
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RCAFson said:
The Soviet air force was certainly far stronger, in say 1947, than the IJAAF was in 1945.
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It was in certain areas of the country granted, the Soviet Union was huge but they had many gaps in their air defenses as documented in the book the Price of Vigilance.

RCAFson said:
AFAIK, the Washington never flew a combat sortie whilst the Lincoln was flying combat missions until the mid 1950s, in Malaya.
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Actually the Washingtons flew ELINT missions. The Lincoln was perfect for the Malaya operations, no aerial opposition and rain down lots of bombs on gruella positions.


Everything one could ever want to know about the Washington

After the conclusion of WW2 and the rapid advancement into the late 1940s, the RAF was looking to upgrade its aging bomber fleet of Lincoln's and Lancaster's to the new Jet bombers. However their development would not be completed until the early 50s, leaving Britain with a very troublesome dilemma.

As America was placing some B-29s into storage, the British took interest. knowing their nuclear capability would be needed as the Cold War was very much warming up at the time, they acquired 87 B-29s from 20th March 1950 under the Mutual Defense Assistance Program.

The new aircraft, in keeping with RAF tradition were to be given the name "Washington" and were retrofitted with standard RAF technology and equipment.

Squadrons equipped with Washintons:

115 - RAF Marham
14 - RAF Coningsby
90 - RAF Marham
XV - RAF Coningsby
44 - RAF Coningsby
57 - RAF Waddington
207 - RAF Marham
35 - RAF Marham
192 - RAF Watton (These aircraft were actually striped of all gunners and turrets and equipped with Electronic Intelligence equipment, nicknamed "The Spooks")

By 1952 however with the Canberra jet bomber well in service the RAF began retiring the Washington and returning them to the US. British pilots flew them back over on what was called the "Home Run" and saw them handed back to the USAF. Two were sent to Australia for training purposes and several crashed when in RAF service.

No surviving examples survive today.


192 Squadron Washingtons
Dave Forster

192 Squadron acquired three RB-29As as replacements for its three Lincolns in the first half of 1952. The first two aircraft (WZ966, WZ967) arrived at Watton in April and were joined by the third (WZ968) in June. Work then got underway at the CSE to develop an Elint fit for the aircraft.
The modifications, carried out by the CSE, involved the removal of all gun turrets and bombing equipment; fairing over of the rear observation blisters; the conversion of the rear pressurised compartment into an Elint compartment accommodating six Special Operators; the installation of two radomes under the rear fuselage for direction-finding antennae and the fitting of a number of other external antennae.

The primary tasks of the aircraft were to intercept, analyse and plot the positions of Soviet radar stations; and to intercept Soviet radio communications (including. transmissions between Soviet GCI stations and fighters). The six Special Operator positions comprised two VHF communications intercept positions (AN/ARR-5); two metric radar intercept and D/F positions (AN/APR-4); and two centimetric (X-band and S-band) radar intercept and D/F and positions (ARI 18021, AN/APR-9, AN/APA-11). Wire recorders were also carried to capture signals for later analysis.

Modification and installation of the first Washington, WZ966, began in May 1952. After a few minor problems work was finally completed at the end of September and the installation cleared early in October. Work was then started on the remaining two Washingtons. Using the experience gained in the first conversion these proceeded quickly and were completed in December.

During the first half of 1953 the squadron devoted its efforts to the training of its Washington crews and to the installation and trials of equipment in the aircraft. Training Special Operators was a particular problem since the Washington carried three times the number previously carried by the squadron's Lincolns. The training programme was helped by the acquisition of an unmodified Washington (WW346) in April, primarily for pilot continuation training. This aircraft helped take the load off the three Elint aircraft which were flown intensively on combined navigator/special operator training sorties. Training flights were also made to the Middle East for pilot/navigator training. The squadron took advantage of Exercise Jungle King, a NATO naval exercise, in March 1953 to fly a series of Elint sorties using all three Washingtons to locate and track the 'enemy' fleet using radar and voice intercepts.

The first Washington Elint operation carried out during 1953 (Operation REASON) was a one-off operation to intercept the new Soviet cruiser Sverdlov just north of the Shetlands following its visit to the UK in August 1953. This highly successful operation revealed the presence of X-band fire control radar on the ship.

The squadron took part in a further NATO naval exercise at the end of September when a Washington carried out two long-range sorties in support of Exercise Mariner. The Washington was tasked with the detection and location of the 'enemy' Blue force fleet; the detection of AEW and anti-submarine aircraft radar transmissions; and interception of radio traffic between ships and between carriers and their aircraft on both VHF and UHF bands.

Operational flying began in earnest in October 1953 when two Washingtons, accompanied by WW346 as a support aircraft, were detached to Nicosia. Two Elint flights were carried out during the detachment, probably over the Black Sea.

During the next four years the Washingtons were flown on three basic types of Elint operation. The first, and least controversial, was the routine Border sortie. These were daylight sorties over West Germany, flown approximately 15 miles or so from the East German border. Roughly four of this type of sortie were flown each month, although these were often cancelled to make way for more important operations. The second type of operation was the shadowing of Soviet naval units. These operations were flown on an opportunity basis and occasionally required the diversion of aircraft from pre-planned Elint sorties. Strict rules governed the conduct of these flights, limiting how close the Washington could approach the Soviet vessel or vessels. The third type of operation, and the most risky, was the monthly series of Elint sorties flown in neutral or international airspace along the borders of the Soviet Union and its allies. The main area of operations for these flights were the Baltic Sea (from Watton or Germany), the Black Sea (from Cyprus) and the Caspian Sea (from Iraq). The Washingtons normally operated in conjunction with the squadron's Canberras – the Washingtons standing-off a minimum of 70 miles from Soviet territory and monitoring reactions to the Canberras, which approached to within 30 miles of the border. Each of these sorties was reviewed and authorized by the Foreign Minister, before it was flown. Although these operations were flown in international airspace at a respectable distance from Soviet borders they still risked a hostile reaction. To minimize the risk they were always flown in absolute darkness during the period of the new moon. Since very few Soviet air defence fighters then carried AI radar this offered some protection from interception.

In February 1956 Washington WZ966 carried out the first RAF Elint sortie into the Barents Sea. The 18 hour mission was made even more arduous by the failure of the aircraft heating system and the loss of one engine after 12 hours flying. Following this operation the Barents Sea was added to the list of regular operational areas. However subsequent sorties into the Barents Sea operated from Norwegian airfields.

In the autumn of 1956 a single Washington was detached to Malta for several months to compile an Egyptian electronic order of battle prior to the joint UK-French operations to reclaim the Suez Canal.

The Elint suite in the Washington was subject to rolling programme of improvements during the aircraft's service. The main problem was the accuracy of direction-finding, and thus the accuracy with which Soviet radar stations could be plotted. A number of improvements were made to the ARI 18021 equipment, and also to operating procedures; the ARI 18021 was later supplemented by the addition of US-built APA-17 direction-finders. Provision was also made for an alternative fit of additional HF and VHF receivers to enhance the aircraft's communications intercept capability. By the time the Washington was replaced by the Comet the intelligence-gathering ability of the aircraft had been transformed. Many of the lessons learnt with the Washington were applied directly to the Comet.

Maintenance of the 192 Squadron Washingtons was complicated by the withdrawal of the type from Bomber Command service in the early 1954. This made spares harder to obtain and as a result the aircraft were sometimes flown with non-essential equipment inoperable. The autopilot seems to have been an early victim of the spares situation. Mainplane corrosion problems were also encountered. By 1956 the squadron was complaining that it was becoming more difficult to meet its tasks as "the age and flying hours of the Washingtons increase".

The end for the Washington came December 1957. By then the maintenance situation had deteriorated to the point where it was considered unlikely the aircraft could successfully complete a sortie without some major unserviceability. As a result all three operational aircraft were stood down. Luckily the Washington replacement, the Comet R.2, was nearly ready for operations. In the end only two months were lost in the changeover, the Comet flying its first operational Elint sortie in February 1958.[/spoiler]

http://www.rafwatton.info/History/TheWashington/192SquadronWashingtons/tabid/91/Default.aspx


RAF Washington of 192 Squadron


207 Squadrons Washingtons:


WF437: City of Bakersfield in USAAF WW2 service: EM-Y : to 35 Sqn: RU 22.7.53 as 44-69680
WF565: EM-B: RU 15.2.54 as 44-62243
WF549: *EM-M: prev 57, 90 Sqns: RU 19.1.54 as 44-62013
WF566: RU 16.3.54 as 44-62135
WF558: to 57, 90 Sqns: RU 5.1.54 as 44-61978
WF567: RU 16.3.54 as 44-62256
WF559: to 35, 115 Sqns: RU 5.1.54 as 44-62014
WF568: EM-W: RU 15.1.54 as 44-62265
WF560: to 44, 115 Sqns: RU 19.1.54 as 44-61969
WF569: EM-V: RU 15.2.54 as 44-62105
WF561: to 44 Sqn: RU 1.12.53 as 44-62109
WW342: RU 3.11.53 as 44-62242
WF564: RU 15.2.54 as 44-62259
WW352: EM-F: RU 25.2.54 as 44-62255

RAF Washington B1 - The British B-29
 
FLYBOYJ said:
"Recommended" Arnold chose the B-29. Maybe he had a lot more knowledge and foresight than all of us!
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Well, at least he's not saying Ramsey "chose" the Lancaster, so a little bit of progress... Still with the snarky comments and refusal to accept reality, but progress...
 
RCAFson said:
Ramsey had a lot more knowledge than me
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Clearly! Ramsey's own words.

"In view of the critical shortage of B-29's it was at first proposed that a British Lancaster be used for the test work even though a B-29 would almost certainly be used as the combat ship. The Air Forces, however, wisely recommended that a B-29 be used for the test work as well, both to avoid non-standard maintenance and to accumulate experience in B-29 operations with such a bomb."
 
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