The Myth of the British "Fixing" The Corsair

Didn't the Vickers Warwick have R-2800 engines?

PAT303 said:

Adding the stall flap was another improvement.

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You mean the stall spoiler? The one that then LTJG Merle "Butch" Davenport, the engineering officer of VF-17, designed had convinced the Vought folks install and, lo, and behold, it worked. You mean that stall spoiler? Davenport, though a degreed aeronautical engineer before becoming a naval aviator, was certainly not in the Royal Navy and no one in the Royal Navy was involved.

Davenport, after the war was stationed at TacTest where he was the F8F projects officer and in a little excursion to the Cleveland Air Show in 1946 he set a time to climb record, from a standing stop to 10,000 feet of 97.8 seconds.

GrauGeist said:

Didn't the Vickers Warwick have R-2800 engines?

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Thanks for the reminder. The type is easily forgotten given low production levels.

Initially intended to get RR Vulture which first prototype flew with. Second protype first flew with Centaurus in 1940 then converted to R-2800 to fly in July 1941.

Initial Jan 1941 order was for 150 P&W engined Mk.I and 100 Centaurus powered Mk.II. Delays getting the engines from the US meant that the first production R-2800-S1A4-G (rated at 1,850hp) powered Mk.I didn't fly until April 1942. This wss an early A series engine. Corsairs got the higher rated B series. Eventually 499 P&W powered versions built mainly as ASR and transport aircraft.

That is just over 1,000 engines allowing for spares out of a total production run of over 125,000 thousand.

Switched to Centaurus engines for the various Mk.II/V. Some 342 aircraft built.

Admiral Beez said:

Can we look at how the British might have wrecked the Corsair? I recall reading somewhere that the Air Ministry or Australian tried a Bristol Centaurus on a Corsair.

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Maybe this guy.

Steve Hnz said:

Maybe this guy.

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Impressive stuff!

The Ventura also used R-2800, 209 Ventura are reported to have made it to Britain (Starting in April 1942), 146 to Canada, 205 to the Middle East, and 263 to South Africa. There would have been spare engines as well.

Warwick preliminary contract in October 1935, Hercules engines, design weights kept going up, the idea of fitting Vultures from January 1937, Sabres from November 1937, contract amended for 1 Vulture and 1 Sabre prototype, in December 1937 came the Centaurus suggestion. First flight in August 1939 with Vultures. First flight with Centaurus in April 1940, same month as the Sabre version was cancelled. In July came the allocation of 2 R-2800. First prototype sent to Bristol for Centaurus development in January 1941, same month as 150 R-2800 mark I and 100 Centaurus mark II versions were ordered. Second prototype continued trials of airframe modifications and the Centaurus, as a result despite the R-2800 conversion works order being issued in February it did not fly with R-2800 until July.

305 R-2800 powered mark I of various types July 1942 to March 1944 (only 9 built in 1942)
132 Centaurus powered mark II June 1944 to May 1946
100 R-2800 powered mark III, March 1944 to January 1945, plus 1 in June, 4 in August and 2 in October 1945
211 Centaurus powered mark V March 1944 to May 1946
94 R-2800 powered mark VI March to August 1944, June to December 1945.
There were also 3 prototypes.

According to the Ministry of Aircraft Production Britain imported 259 R-2800 for Warwicks July 1941 to January 1942 inclusive, another 5 in February, total 264, stocks of R-2800 are listed at 295 as of 28 February. By end 1942 the cumulative imports of R-2800 for Warwicks were 829, with another 189 in the first quarter of 1943 after which the US engine imports report stops. Stocks of R-2800 for all users peaked at 1,178 end June 1943, down to 410 by end June 1944. End July 1943, when the engine model numbers are first reported in the stocks report, 545 R-2800-S1A4G for Warwick and Ventura, 584 R-2800-47 for Warwick, 3 R-2800-31 for Ventura

As a measure of the delays in the production system, Merlin 28 began production in the US in August 1941, first British imports were 228 in May 1942 (reportedly without accessories), with 3,136 by the end of the year, first Lancaster III built in December 1942.

I do have to ask which R-2800?
The Warwicks got the A series engines two speed single stage engines which were rated at 1850hp for take-off and 1850hp at a whopping 2700ft in low gear. High gear was good for 1500hp at 14,000ft. Engine was about 2300lbs and 52.5in in diameter. A number of these were used in the early Ventura's.
These were the S1A4-Gs as already noted by Mr Sinclair.
The R-2800-31/47 engines were the 2000hp B series engines. A better bomber engine, not much of change for a fighter engine. While it had 2000hp for take off it could only hold 2000hp to 1500ft and while it could make 1600hp at altitude it that altitude was 13500ft, 500ft lower than the rated altitude of the older engine. Basically P&W had solved an oil scavenge problem and gotten the engine to run 100rpm faster but used the existing supercharger.
The F4U and the F6Fs were using the B series engines with two stage superchargers and intercoolers. The engines were about 200lbs heavier, 10-12 inches longer and the intercoolers were located separately.

The lower front scoop was divided into 3rds with the outer sections providing the air to the inter coolers. In this photo the port side intercooler inlet is the grey/silver box between the exhaust pipes and the green duct work leads from the aux supercharger, through the intercooler and then to the carb located on the engine supercharger.
This was good engine and gave 1650hp at 22,500ft but you need a lot of parts to change one of the bomber engines over and you need an awful lot of volume inside the fuselage to fit all of the needed bits and pieces to get fighter-like performance out of the engine.

Does the Hawker fighter have the needed volume inside the fuselage to fit the needed 2 stage supercharger equipment?
If not, does the R-2800 offer anything over a small, lighter, Merlin engine in 1942/43?

nuuumannn said:

Not Australia, the Aussies never operated the Corsair, the Kiwis did but none were fitted with a Centaurus. I think you might have seen this on a what if modeling site, I don't think the British fitted a Corsair with a Centaurus. I have seen a Sea Fury fitted with Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp though...

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Several Sea Furies have been modified with a 28-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-4360 radial engine. Hawker Sea Fury T.20 "Dreadnaught," flown by Dennis Sanders, is registered as N20SF and carries race number 8.
Some are ex-RNAF or Luftwaffe two-seaters, often used as target tugs, and "Blind Man's Bluff" had the front cockpit eliminated with a small bubble in the aft seat to improve CG and possibly aerodynamics. It had a R-3350.

That Centaurus to R-3350 conversion was a natural. They were about the same size and weight and the 3350 even fit under the Sea Fury cowling.

The Wrights were up to 50 mph faster than the Bristols though.

This airplane pioneered the conversion, in 1987.

That Sea Fury was built as a 2 seat T20, flown by RNAF and then Luftwaffe target tug.
Converted to an Unlimited Air Racer by hands on Crew Chief/Engineer/Fabricator Larry Burton, who converted to the Wright, running the R3350 on alcohol, clipped the wings, removed the front cockpit, and enlarged the fin, racing it as "Blind Man's Bluff" for the owner's Levelor Venetian blind company. What's remarkable is Larry did all this despite being confined to a wheelchair!
He also was an Indy 500 crew chief, and engineered a turbine engine Sprint car, among many aero and auto projects.
The Sea Fury was sold, and later raced as "Critical Mass"
Currently, it's being converted back to two seat RNAF configuration, all air racing mods undone.

fannum said:

Several Sea Furies have been modified with a 28-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-4360 radial engine. Hawker Sea Fury T.20 "Dreadnaught," flown by Dennis Sanders, is registered as N20SF and carries race number 8.
Some are ex-RNAF or Luftwaffe two-seaters, often used as target tugs, and "Blind Man's Bluff" had the front cockpit eliminated with a small bubble in the aft seat to improve CG and possibly aerodynamics. It had a R-3350.

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Yup. That previous Sea Fury photo I took myself, in case you were wondering.

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Here's a pic of Blind Man's Bluff/Critical Mass converted back to Sea Fury configuration, regaining the front cockpit and longer wing tips, and losing the enlarged vertical surfaces. It looks like they wisely kept the R3350.
Since we've alread hijacked this Corsair thread, who remembers the Sea Fury's major contribution to air combat?

(In the Bay of Pigs debacle, they ran roughshod through the CIA's B-26s, with the aid of gunned up T-33s, four each Sea Furies and T-Birds shot down five B-26s and sank two cargo ships, losing one Sea Fury.)

fannum said:

Here's a pic of Blind Man's Bluff/Critical Mass converted back to Sea Fury configuration, regaining the front cockpit and longer wing tips, and losing the enlarged vertical surfaces. It looks like they wisely kept the R3350.
View attachment 819315Since we've alread hijacked this Corsair thread, who remembers the Sea Fury's major contribution to air combat?

(In the Bay of Pigs debacle, they ran roughshod through the CIA's B-26s, with the aid of gunned up T-33s, four each Sea Furies and T-Birds shot down five B-26s and sank two cargo ships, losing one Sea Fury.)

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Let's not forget the Royal Navy Sea Fury that shot down a MiG-15 during the Korean War - I would say that was pretty major, given the RN was the principal user of the type.


I photographed this guy rounding the pylons, too. Unfortunately Dreadnought had thrown itself out of the racing contention by the time I got there, but the mechanics and pilots held wee discussions outside the aircraft each day.

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Just to balance things out a bit, some shots of a local Corsair...

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To throw things back out of balance here is a home made Super Corsair. These guys had an early -1 Corsair fuselage hulk in the back lot and wanted to go racing. They chopped and channelled it and stuck a R-4360 on the front. It went very fast and won a championship -- against Dreadnought.

Note the spinner evolution between 1982 and 1988. A lot of thinking was going on during that time about air flow inside a radial engine cowling.

I need to do a Sea Fury thread...

That Super Corsair is such a beast, Sisu. Your middle photo is a winner, with its prop disc. Great shot!

I can't really compare with Sisu's awesome shot, but I got these images some years ago, which I'm happy with. This is taken at extreme focal length of a Corsair pulling a tight turn. High shutter speed, high aperture, variable ISO on an overcast day, but it's crisp, even though the aircraft is some distance away. You can even see the concentration etched into the pilot's face... Keith Skilling, by the way.

Corsair -1

Corsair -2

Wonderful Corsair closeups. I love this kind of stuff...

I love that illusion of personal contact with the pilot. This is hard to do, but effective.

This photo is not as crisp as Grant's Corsair, but has that feel. This is the World's fastest Sea Fury -- quite a bit faster even than Dreadnought.




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That is awesome. I would'a loved to have seen this in the historic park at the last Reno. We were told beforehand that there would be some historic Reno racers on display, but the only one was Ole Yeller.

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