The P-38J and L in the European theater.

gjs238 · Sep 24, 2014

tomo pauk said:
Back to this tidbit - the USAF memo, dated March 11th 1944 (that deals with perspective P-38K), says that cockpit heating is 'satisfactory' with newly produced P-38Js. The electric gun heater is introduced with P-38J-15, so the hot air formerly used to heat the guns is now directed in the cockpit. Also the 'intensifier tube inlet' is now of increased size; those two changes more than doubled the amount of heat entering in the cockpit. Lockheed is also trying to seal any gaps where leakage can occur. Here, last page talks about cockpit heating.

I don't understand how issues like cockpit heating and windshield defrosting don't get addressed during development prior to wartime service.
Weren't aircraft flown at high altitudes during development?

FLYBOYJ · Sep 24, 2014

gjs238 said:
I don't understand how issues like cockpit heating and windshield defrosting don't get addressed during development prior to wartime service.
Weren't aircraft flown at high altitudes during development?

Over Southern California!

Remember - when the P-38 was being developed no one ever thought more than a dozen or so would ever be built. All the YP-38s were built by hand and things like cockpit heating and windshield defrosting were just being developed. When the P-38 first flew we were still operating open cockpit biplane fighters.

Shortround6 · Sep 24, 2014

We may have been "operating" open cockpit biplane fighters but they were hardly in first line operation or units. Speaking of the AAC here although the navy had been using enclosed cockpits since the early 30s, although they often flew with the canopy open.

Besides, you think they might have learned just a little bit from

The PB-2A initially served with the 27th Pursuit Squadron, 1st Pursuit Group at Selfridge Field, Michigan.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 24, 2014

Shortround6 said:
We may have been "operating" open cockpit biplane fighters but they were hardly in first line operation or units.

But they were there...

"The first unit to receive the P-12 in the Panama Canal Zone was the 24th Pursuit Squadron (6th Composite Group) in 1930. This squadron then joined the 16th Pursuit Group, where it joined the 29th and 78th Pursuit Squadrons, both equipped with the P-12. The 78th lost its P-12s in 1936, but the other two squadrons kept them to 1939.

On Hawaii the P-12 was used by the 5th Composite Group. It was one of many types used by the 4th Observation (then Reconnaissance) Squadron in c.1929-1937 and then the 58th Observation Squadron (c.1936-38 ). The P-12 was also used by the 6th and 19th Pursuit Squadrons, both of the 18th Pursuit Group, from 1931-1938."

I think the XP-38 first flew in January 1939.

GrauGeist · Sep 24, 2014

Don't forget the P-26!

GregP · Sep 24, 2014

Where did I get the list?

Since it apparently isn't obvious, the list I have is:

1. Richard I. Bong, P-38 pilot, 40 kills
2. Thomas McGuire, P-38 pilot, 38 kills
3. David McCampbell, F6F pilot, 34 kills
4. George Preddy, P-47 pilot, 29 kills
5/6. Gregory Boyington, F4U pilot. 28 kills
6/5. Francis Gabreski, P-47 pilot, 28 kills
7/8. Robert Johnson, P-47 pilot, 27 kills
8/7. Charles McDonald, P-38 pilot, 27 kills
9. Joe Foss, F4F pilot, 26 kills
10/11. Robert Hanson, F4U pilot, 25 kills
11/10. John Meyer, P-47 and P-51 pilot. 25 kills.

Above I simply stopped with Robert Hanson. This is the list that was "official" a bit after WWII and includes USAAF, USN, and USMC all together. I am not a subscriber to all the revisionist filtering that went on over the years. It was mostly done by people trying to advance the careers of certain aces, and they seem to have convinced some people of same. I'm not in that group.

Three P-38 aces, three P-47 aces, two Corsair aces, and one Wildcat ace.

This is U.S. list, not an "Allied list," though I have that as well along with list for all countries except the smallest five (and I'm working on them as I get the time and desire). The P-38 was a U.S. fighter in origin and most of the production run, so I stuck with US pilots.

I'd be happy to participate in an "Allied Ace" discussion, it has merit and there are a lot of good pilots out there from all sides, but the merits of the P-38 were almost a U.S. - only concern. The only P-38 that was of real concern to the British was the awful units they ordered with non-contra-rotating props and non-turbo, too (lots of torque issues along with critical engine issues and generally unfriendly performance). None of the rest of the P-38's were so afflicted.

And Bill, US citizens flying the RAF are not counted as U.S.A. by me. They are counted as RAF since that's the service they were flying for when the victories were achieved. If you disagree, then do so in good health. I'll maintain my point of view either way.

GrauGeist · Sep 24, 2014

Greg,
Every single pilot I listed was an American, there are no allied pilots on my list. W/C Wade was an American who chose to remain with the RAF after the U.S. entered the war.

My list, goes to illustrate that the top P-38 aces achieved those victories in the Pacific Theater. Even the aces you listed with the P-38 were Pacific Theater.

I didn't post the list to debate scores, or half scores or little itty bitty peices of scores, I posted the list to illustrate that the P-38 was not the ultra German killing machine that some make it out to be. Yes it held it's own, yes it performed wonderfully, and yes it was a terror to ground targets, but in Europe, it took a back seat to the other types.

The big question here, would be "why"? In the Pacific, it was a top scoring platform against agile, well flown adversaries. This is quite a contrast between the ETO (and MTO) and the Pacific.

GregP · Sep 24, 2014

Graugeist,

I never mentioned the theater and don't care at all. The list of the top 10 is the list. There are three P-38's in the top 10 U.S.A. list. It's a stand-alone fact. Where the heck are you coming from?

The P-38J and L are a "What IF" in the ETO. No more than a very few ever GOT there! I am not aware that there are rules about "what ifs."

Don't beat around the bush, say what you are trying to say.

I am not trying to disagree, I am trying to find out what you are talking about.

wuzak · Sep 24, 2014

This is the list of the top 50 American Aces according to List of World War II flying aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pilot	Country	Service	WWII Aerial Victories
Richard I. Bong	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	40
Thomas B. McGuire	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	38
David McCampbell	United States	U.S. Navy	34
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	28
Gregory "Pappy" Boyington	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	28
Robert S. Johnson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	27
Charles H. MacDonald	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	27
George E. Preddy, Jr.	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	26.83
Joseph J. Foss	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	26
Robert M. Hanson	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	25
John C. Meyer	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	24
Cecil E. Harris	United States	U.S. Navy	24
Raymond H. Littge	United States	U.S. Air Force	23.5
Eugene A. Valencia	United States	U.S. Navy	23
Lance C. Wade	United States	Royal Air Force	23
David C. Schilling	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	22.5
Gerald R. Johnson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	22
Neel E. Kearby	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	22
Jay T. Robbins	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	22
Dominic S. Gentile	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	21.83
Fred J. Christensen	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	21.5
Raymond S. Wetmore	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	21.25
John J. Voll	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	21
Kenneth A. Walsh	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	21
Walker 'Bud' Melville Mahurin	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	20.75
Donald N. Aldrich	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	20
Thomas J. Lynch	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	20
Westbrook	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	20
Glenn E. Duncan	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	19
Patrick D. Fleming	United States	U.S. Navy	19
Cornelius N. Nooy	United States	U.S. Navy	19
John Lucian Smith	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	19
Alexander Vraciu	United States	U.S. Navy	19
Arthur J. Benko	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18.5
Marion E. Carl	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	18.5
Leonard K. Carson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18.5
Glenn T. Eagleson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18.5
Wilbur J. Thomas	United States	U.S. Marine Corps	18.5
Walter C. Beckham	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18
Herschel H. Green	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18
John C. "Pappy" Herbst	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18
Charles H. Older	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	18
Hubert Zemke	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17.75
John B. England	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17.5
Duane W. Beeson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17.33
John F. Thornell	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17.25
Henry W. Brown	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17.2
Gerald W. Johnson	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17
James S. Varnell, Jr.	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	17
John T. Godfrey	United States	U.S. Army Air Forces	16.33

GrauGeist · Sep 24, 2014

This thread was referring to the European Theater...so let's find a thread about the P-40's performance in North Africa and flood it with PTO stats, then...

The conversation that launched my list was to point out (factually) that the P-38 wasn't as freakin' awesome in Europe as you insist.

You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. sometimes I think you do this just to get attention, so don't encorage me to say what's on my mind, you won't appreciate it.

wuzak · Sep 24, 2014

And doesn't big victory credit numbers suggest opportunity as much as it does aircraft or pilot ability?

GregP · Sep 24, 2014

Go back and read the FIRST post, Graugeist, and THEN say that.

It is a postulation question, which I was attempting to follow until you interrupted it. Instead of trying to take over this thread, maybe start one with YOUR question as the lead post? Maybe I could follow it then ... your venom eludes me ... sorry, you just aren't making sense in light of the author's first post.

And I don't need attention. Maybe you do. Go drink a beer and calm down. Then come back. You wouldn't appreciate the reciprocal from me either and, more important, it would serve no purpose ... and there's NO reason for it other than some desire to argue and try to CONVINCE me that I'm wrong. I'm 63 years old and I have my opinions because of the facts I've learned about for 50+ of those years. You ain't gonna' change them.

This isn't an argument forum, it is a discussion forum. I don't have to have the same opinon as you do and largely don't. Get over it and play nice in the sandbox. I have not insulted you personally in any way, as far as I know (if I have, apologies ...), and will try very hard not to do so. Stop trying to do it to me and stop right now before it gets out of hand.

Please?

GrauGeist · Sep 25, 2014

Greg,
I won't further this discussion either here or in PM...you're on your own, there...

The bottom line, as I posted earlier, is that the P-38 scored an impressive amount of victories against Axis adversaries, however, there is a huge difference between what it acheived in Europe (and the MTO) and the Pacific theater.

GregP · Sep 25, 2014

Agree Graugeist. Once the P-38 faults were fixed it did well. I feel it would have done the same if it were still in the ETO, and it largely wasn't except as a recon platform.

Obviously you don't agree. I guess we can leave it there.

Been on my own for a lot of years. Still am.

drgondog · Sep 25, 2014

wuzak said:
This is the list of the top 50 American Aces according to List of World War II flying aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pilot Country Service WWII Aerial Victories
Richard I. Bong United States U.S. Army Air Forces 40
Thomas B. McGuire United States U.S. Army Air Forces 38
David McCampbell United States U.S. Navy 34
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski United States U.S. Army Air Forces 28
Gregory "Pappy" Boyington United States U.S. Marine Corps 28 24
Robert S. Johnson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 27
Charles H. MacDonald United States U.S. Army Air Forces 27
George E. Preddy, Jr. United States U.S. Army Air Forces 26.83
Joseph J. Foss United States U.S. Marine Corps 26
Robert M. Hanson United States U.S. Marine Corps 25
John C. Meyer United States U.S. Army Air Forces 24
Cecil E. Harris United States U.S. Navy 24
Raymond H. Littge United States U.S. Air Force 23.5 10.5
Eugene A. Valencia United States U.S. Navy 23
Lance C. Wade United States Royal Air Force 23
David C. Schilling United States U.S. Army Air Forces 22.5
Gerald R. Johnson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 22
Neel E. Kearby United States U.S. Army Air Forces 22
Jay T. Robbins United States U.S. Army Air Forces 22
Dominic S. Gentile United States U.S. Army Air Forces 21.83
Fred J. Christensen United States U.S. Army Air Forces 21.5
Raymond S. Wetmore United States U.S. Army Air Forces 21.25
John J. Voll United States U.S. Army Air Forces 21
Kenneth A. Walsh United States U.S. Marine Corps 21
Walker 'Bud' Melville Mahurin United States U.S. Army Air Forces 20.75
Donald N. Aldrich United States U.S. Marine Corps 20
Thomas J. Lynch United States U.S. Army Air Forces 20
Westbrook United States U.S. Army Air Forces 20
Glenn E. Duncan United States U.S. Army Air Forces 19
Patrick D. Fleming United States U.S. Navy 19
Cornelius N. Nooy United States U.S. Navy 19
John Lucian Smith United States U.S. Marine Corps 19
Alexander Vraciu United States U.S. Navy 19
Arthur J. Benko United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18.5
Marion E. Carl United States U.S. Marine Corps 18.5
Leonard K. Carson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18.5
Glenn T. Eagleson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18.5
Wilbur J. Thomas United States U.S. Marine Corps 18.5
Walter C. Beckham United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18
Herschel H. Green United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18
John C. "Pappy" Herbst United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18
Charles H. Older United States U.S. Army Air Forces 18
Hubert Zemke United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17.75
John B. England United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17.5
Duane W. Beeson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17.33
John F. Thornell United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17.25
Henry W. Brown United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17.2 14.2
Gerald W. Johnson United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17
James S. Varnell, Jr. United States U.S. Army Air Forces 17
John T. Godfrey United States U.S. Army Air Forces 16.33

The corrections apply to the official American Fighter Aces totals.. the various lists pre USAF Study 85including the Eight Air Force Victory Credits Board June 1945 had numerous double credits that were copied without thought, and Study 85 removed them.

The American Fighter Aces Association recognizes for example Wade and RAF Eagle Squadron ace Dunn, as American Fighter Aces as well as officially recognized scores for Tex Hill while flying for Nationalist Chinese AVG before joining the 23FG. Bob Neale had 13 with AVG, recognized as an American Fighter Ace - was born in British Columbia. Alex Baumler, another AVG/CBI Ace, recognized by AFA received 4.5 of his 9.5 credits flying I-15 and I-16 for the Soviets in Spanish Civil War in 1937, one with the AVG and 4 with 23rd FG.

Dunn, Wade, and Baumler's non US (including AVG, Eagle Squadron) vc's are not accounted for in USAF 85, nor are USMC and USN or RAF, etc.

Wayne - in addition the list is top WW II scores. Gabreski got 6.5 more in Korea (officially number 3), Whisner raised his to 21, Eagleston to 20.5, Mahurin to 24.25, Meyer to 26,

Mike Williams · Sep 25, 2014

DSR T-888 said:
When the problems were finally fixed for the P-38, it was too late since the Mustang was already proving dominance. So my question is; how did/would the P-38J-25 and P-38L-5-LO preform against German fighters in the European theater if some of the USAAF still used the P-38 up until the end of the war.

Thanks
DSR_T-888

You might consider checking out the operations of the 9th Air Force P-38 groups, i.e. 367th, 370th and 474th Fighter Groups. The 367th and 370th operated the P-38 into early 1945 and the 474th stayed with the P-38 through to war's end. These units did see action against German fighters.

Shortround6 · Sep 25, 2014

P-38s MIGHT have racked up a higher European score had they not been sucked off to North Africa to cover the invasion and Tunisia campaign followed by Sicily/Italy.

First P-38 fighter groups go operational in England in Aug/Sept of 1942 but are redeployed to North Africa in Oct/Nov of 1942. P-38 fighters (recon planes did operate from England) will NOT operate from England in any numbers (squadron or above) until Oct 1943 at which point there are already 7 fighter groups in England operational with P-47s.

So in some cases score in a particular theater is influenced by numbers available, time in service and enemy opposition (you can't shoot down what isn't there for instance).

gjs238 · Sep 25, 2014

GregP said:
9. Joe Foss, F4F pilot, 26 kills

F4F ace!
The ace of aces!

gjs238 · Sep 25, 2014

Shortround6 said:
P-38s MIGHT have racked up a higher European score had they not been sucked off to North Africa to cover the invasion and Tunisia campaign followed by Sicily/Italy.

First P-38 fighter groups go operational in England in Aug/Sept of 1942 but are redeployed to North Africa in Oct/Nov of 1942. P-38 fighters (recon planes did operate from England) will NOT operate from England in any numbers (squadron or above) until Oct 1943 at which point there are already 7 fighter groups in England operational with P-47s.

So in some cases score in a particular theater is influenced by numbers available, time in service and enemy opposition (you can't shoot down what isn't there for instance).

What was the motivation for redeploying P-38's to North Africa instead of using P-40's in that theatre?
Range?

drgondog · Sep 25, 2014

Mike Williams said:
You might consider checking out the operations of the 9th Air Force P-38 groups, i.e. 367th, 370th and 474th Fighter Groups. The 367th and 370th operated the P-38 into early 1945 and the 474th stayed with the P-38 through to war's end. These units did see action against German fighters.

Yes, Mike

Each was equipped with P-38J-15 with leading edge fuel tanks when they started combat ops in April and early May, 1944. I haven't yet found out whether P-38L's were delivered but all the J's received the filed modifications for both the boosted ailerons and the Dive flaps by late June when all the ETO P-38s were upgraded to the P-38J-25.
Gp -VC's
367 89.0
370 42.0
474 96.0

By contrast the 354th FG, flying P-51s in 9th AF, same mission profiles - scored as follows from 1 May 1944

354 378.5

- These do not include the 14 VC's in the brief P-47 operation Dec 1944 through mid Feb 1945, or the 'missing' 37 VC's in the lost IX AF April 45 Victory Credit Board.

Simply stated, the 354th FG Mustangs outscored all three 9th AF P-38 FG's equipped with P-38J-15 and newer Lightnings from May 1, 1944 through VE Day.

The P-38J and L in the European theater.

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