The Spitfire, My Journey

[Readie]

The Spitfires elliptical wings were largely the work of B Shenstone, who had worked with E Heinkel and were a direct result of RJM's demand for a thin wing. The ellipse, said Shenstone ,was simply the shape that allowed the thinnest possible wing with sufficient room inside for the structure and the other things we wanted to cram inside.
The design was a godsend as it made the Spitfire an extremely safe and forgiving aircraft to fly.

Irony is the basis of British humour. I find this little snippet about my beloved Spitfire ironic....

RR purchased a HE70 as a flying test bed and the Germans wanted a number of RR Kestrels in exchange. The first prototype ME109 flew with a Vulture engine.

There was an exchange in the Daily Telegraph newspaper in 2005 when a T Cope pithily pointed out that the Hurricane was an British design and inferred that the Spitfire was not. The basic shape was copied from the HE70,the American Curtis D-12 was the influence on RR for the Merlin and the Italians played their part with showing sleek designs in their Schneider planes. ( personally I would have Cope shot for treason but, we live in liberal times)

Nevertheless, RJM's greatest design was his own synthesis of ideas drawn across the aero industry and it was British !!

The Spitfire, long a symbol of British spirit, that is hard to describe to a foreigner, but it can be felt in the heart every time one is seen or heard, Especially doing its trademark low pass and victory roll. If doesn't bring a lump to your throat then...well you aren't British.

I have also found out that the Spitfire bears another honour,that of the saviour of the free world.A big title but, deserved as by the repulsion of Nazi Germany from invading Britian the allies had time to gather ourselves to rid the world of the horror of the Third Reich.

A man I greatly admire, Lord H Dowding, is our hero by realising that Britain needed as many Spitfires as possible before Germany lashed out at us.

The magnificent ' Battle of Britain' Pacific steam locomotives named after out national heroes, 'Sir Winston Churchill' took the great man's coffin from Waterloo to its final resting place in Oxford, another was named 'Spitfire', another 34052 'lord Dowding' made the last revenue earning run on the 9 July 1967 with a train load of tomatoes from the Channel Islands....we have never learnt to treat this great warrior well.

More tomorrow
Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

Thank God we won in 1783 and 1814 or my comments in another thread about the Spitfire (and Mustang) being overrated may have gotten me shot at dawn.

That nonsense being spouted by T. Cope is about as hilariously ridiculous as claiming that the A6M Zero was a copy of American designs.

A case could be made that the Spitfire also saved Germany from herself.

In my opinion Hugh Dowding can never be overly praised

 

[Readie]

Er, you didn't win in 1783. We gave you America, apart from perpetual access to the Mississippi. What happened to the Loyalist property that was confiscated?
1814? , the upstart Bonaparte was parading around, Did something happen in America?

Mr Cope is in the Tower of London and as I write he is repenting his unpatriotic remarks. I think another decade locked up is seemly and will give him proper time to reflect.

Good point Steve, The new Germans...pause for laughter...should be grateful for the Spitfire's prowess.

I am heading up a campaign to get the recognition Dowding deserves. Its a disgrace that he has slipped through the pages of our history.

Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

That is hilarious!

 

[fastmongrel]

We could have won in 1783 we just gave in when we realised you didnt understand Cricket and drove your carriages on the wrong side of the road.

 

[Readie]

We could have won in 1783 we just gave in when we realised you didnt understand Cricket and drove your carriages on the wrong side of the road.

Spot on, the munificence of the British crown giving its children a chance to have their own place.
Like any good mother, the children think that they 'won'.
Now...why would we want to have access to the Mississippi? Ghastly mosquito infested swamp.
Cheers
John

 

[stona]

I am heading up a campaign to get the recognition Dowding deserves. Its a disgrace that he has slipped through the pages of our history.
Cheers
John

Come off it. Air Chief Marshall Lord Dowding,Baron of Bentley Prior and Commander-in-Chief of the Fighter Command of the Royal Air Force can hardly be said to have slipped through the pages of history. He's even got a statue on the Strand.
He was a man who did not seek what we would now call celebrity,another of his qualities to be admired. You couldn't say that about many senior commanders.Montgomery was not exactly shy about coming forward,except on the battlefield.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Readie]

Montgomery was not exactly shy about coming forward,except on the battlefield.

I know the statue, but I think Dowding has never been widely recognised and his role understood,
Montgomery...well, we have to disagree there. My dad was in the 8th army and revered Monty as a man who would not waste his men's lives by foolhardy moves.
If history has translated this as you say then that is plain wrong and grossly unfair.

Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

Fastmongrel and Readie you have me ROFL!

Come on Stona, you must admit he deserves more. I agree with you Steve that Dowding was not a publicity hound. The fact that he was the equivalent to a mid-20th century Cincinnatus makes him even more worthy of being acknowledged to the point of being known in every household in Britain.

 

[stona]

Dowding's contribution has been widely acknowledged since the war.Recent histories,documentaries etc have credited him as is his due. His treatment during the war may seem shabby. He was a victim of the sort of internecine feuding which idealists hope will be put aside for the common good in desperate times but it seldom is. Would Fighter Command have been better of if he had remained in command into 1941? We'll never know.
I wasn't being entirely serious in my remark about Montgomery,one of the hazards of the internet is that such remarks are easily misunderstood.I didn't mean to offend anybody.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Lighthunmust]

Montgomery was not exactly shy about coming forward,except on the battlefield.
Cheers
Steve

Anyone who has more than a thimbleful of knowledge about Montgomery knows this is a jest created in the same spirit as all the jokes about squeaky voiced George aka Mr. Blood and Guts. Each was usually the right man at the right time and fortunately never seriously the wrong man at the wrong time.

I wasn't being entirely serious in my remark about Montgomery,one of the hazards of the internet is that such remarks are easily misunderstood.I didn't mean to offend anybody.
Cheers
Steve

What few people, especially Americans, do not understand is that Monty was keenly aware that unlike the U.S. he did not have the replacement resources to risk anything and made well calculated and cautious campaigns. He also understood the consequences of loosing a battle far better than some impetuous American Generals. In some respects Monty was like Bradley in considering risk versus gain. What is unfortunate is that Monty most likely capitulated to criticism of his caution and this led to the overreaching of Market Garden. However, American Generals also bear a sizable amount of the responsibility for that failure. Both the British and Americans were suffering from "Victory Disease" at that time.


"Dowding's contribution has been widely acknowledged since the war.Recent histories,documentaries etc have credited him as is his due. His treatment during the war may seem shabby. He was a victim of the sort of internecine feuding which idealists hope will be put aside for the common good in desperate times but it seldom is. Would Fighter Command have been better of if he had remained in command into 1941? We'll never know." - Stona


You make a very perceptive observation of human nature even when people are supposed to be united in common cause. I agree Dowding since 1941 has been credited as is his due to a certain extent. I think he deserves even more recognition. He was in my opinion the indispensable man during the spring and summer of 1940.

 

[stona]

Dowding was certainly the right man in the right place in the pre war years and culminating in his handling of Fighter Command throughout the first 14 months of the war.
We shouldn't forget that he was a difficult character and certainly didn't do himself any favours after the war with his conspiracy theories and innacurate recollections of events leading up to his sacking. He seems to have died a somewhat embittered man which is a great shame.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Lighthunmust]

Dowding was certainly the right man in the right place in the pre war years and culminating in his handling of Fighter Command throughout the first 14 months of the war.
We shouldn't forget that he was a difficult character and certainly didn't do himself any favours after the war with his conspiracy theories and innacurate recollections of events leading up to his sacking. He seems to have died a somewhat embittered man which is a great shame.
Cheers
Steve

Could you please elaborate on Dowding's claims of conspiracy and inaccurate recollections. I admit to being ignorant of the details and only vaguely aware of this. I will be the first to admit that the flaws of heros are often ignored. People like a good simple story better than unvarnished truth.

 

[Readie]

I wasn't being entirely serious in my remark about Montgomery,one of the hazards of the internet is that such remarks are easily misunderstood.I didn't mean to offend anybody.
Cheers
Steve

No offence taken by me Steve, we are all just expressing an opinion ( or, in my case my Dad's opinion). I agree about the internet have have fallen foul of the misunderstood remark more times than I care to remember,
Right..back to our glorious Spitfires !
Cheers
John

 

[stona]

Could you please elaborate on Dowding's claims of conspiracy and inaccurate recollections. I admit to being ignorant of the details and only vaguely aware of this. I will be the first to admit that the flaws of heros are often ignored. People like a good simple story better than unvarnished truth.

Robert Wright who served under Dowding at the time of the BoB wrote a biography (whose exact title evades me now,I read it years ago) which was very sympathetic to Dowding. I suppose Dowding could hardly write it himself though he did endorse it. It is from this book that many of the theories about Bader,Leigh Mallory,Douglas and other's conspiracy to remove Dowding stem. Unfortunately many of Wright's claims have been repudiated or discredited as have many of Dowding's recollections.
We should not forget that Dowding was due to retire before the war but was asked to stay until March 1940. By November 1940 many,including those named above,felt he had overstayed his welcome. Leigh Mallory,Douglas and Portal were all ten years younger than Dowding,Bader was only thirty years old.
None of this alters the fact that in the immediate pre war period and throughout the Battles of France and Britain Dowding did a difficult job brilliantly. Whilst I'm not a supporter of the conspiracy theories propounded by Wright and others I do think he was badly treated. We are all human and I think he allowed his resentment to cloud his usual crystal clear judgement.

Isn't it incredible that none of us has even mentioned Keith Park,of whom Johnnie Johnson once,slightly inaccurately, said "He was the only man who could have lost the war in a day or even an afternoon". He didn't get his statue until last year!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Lighthunmust]

Robert Wright who served under Dowding at the time of the BoB wrote a biography (whose exact title evades me now,I read it years ago) which was very sympathetic to Dowding. I suppose Dowding could hardly write it himself though he did endorse it. It is from this book that many of the theories about Bader,Leigh Mallory,Douglas and other's conspiracy to remove Dowding stem. Unfortunately many of Wright's claims have been repudiated or discredited as have many of Dowding's recollections.
We should not forget that Dowding was due to retire before the war but was asked to stay until March 1940. By November 1940 many,including those named above,felt he had overstayed his welcome. Leigh Mallory,Douglas and Portal were all ten years younger than Dowding,Bader was only thirty years old.
None of this alters the fact that in the immediate pre war period and throughout the Battles of France and Britain Dowding did a difficult job brilliantly. Whilst I'm not a supporter of the conspiracy theories propounded by Wright and others I do think he was badly treated. We are all human and I think he allowed his resentment to cloud his usual crystal clear judgement.

Isn't it incredible that none of us has even mentioned Keith Park,of whom Johnnie Johnson once,slightly inaccurately, said "He was the only man who could have lost the war in a day or even an afternoon". He didn't get his statue until last year!

Cheers
Steve

First things first ! You are so right and I am kicking myself for not mentioning Keith Park. He was on my mind but I thought mention was not necessary regarding the Dowding controversy. No doubt Park was also an indispensable man.

I am not convinced that Leigh-Mallory gave his full cooperation to Dowding and Park during the BoB. Everything I have read about American relationships with Leigh-Mallory indicates he was very difficult to work with and frequently uncooperative. As I have written elsewhere his opinions on D-Day operations prior to June 6th were very wrong and I'll add now counterproductive. It is my opinion that History now judges Dowding and Park far more favorably than Leigh-Mallory and Bader with regard to BoB strategy.

I was aware of Dowding's retirement status. No doubt he was exhausted after the BoB and not inclined to engage in a political fight. The conspiracy I seem to recall is that after Dowding did step down his political opponents created some revisionist history in the official record. I also question the fate of Park not being politically motivated. Pehaps as you say Wright and Dowding engaged in a little revisionist history themselves. I seem to recall that at some point near the end of the war or postwar the official records were "corrected" to give a more balance view of Dowding and Park. If anyone knows more about this, please reply. My knowledge is obviously limited, please share yours.

 

[stona]

I am not convinced that Leigh-Mallory gave his full cooperation to Dowding and Park during the BoB.
It is my opinion that History now judges Dowding and Park far more favorably than Leigh-Mallory and Bader with regard to BoB strategy.

Nor am I. The 11 Group/12 Group controversy was started by Park and Dowding though. They accused Leigh Mallory,in my opinion rightly,of exactly that.

Yes and rightly so.

Leigh Mallory's two years (memory?) in charge of fighter command were not exactly stunningly successful and the big wing in a defensive and offensive role didn't work as well as he and Bader,amongst others,would have had us believe. I'm not sure official records were ever altered but I think,with hindsight,they were interpreted differently. There were massive egos and huge ambition at work here. There weren't many who would profess to like men like Bader,Leigh Mallory,Gibson,the list goes on,though they may admire them for one reason or another. Ultimately the Park/Dowding camp lost the internal political argument to the Leigh Mallory/Bader and ultimately Portal camp. What Churchill referred to as "cliquism".
Steve

 

[Lighthunmust]

Ultimately the Park/Dowding camp lost the internal political argument to the Leigh Mallory/Bader and ultimately Portal camp. What Churchill referred to as "cliquism".
Steve

If I am not mistaken Churchill was directly involved in correcting another attempt to manipulate documents that presented an unfair analysis of Harris, and I think he may have done the same with Dowding.

 

[pbfoot]

reading Official History of RCAF vol 3 and this is AVM Curtiss RCAF statement about Leigh Mallory "Leigh Mallory was one of those opposed to Canadianization , he was a big fellow and full of hot air, you couldn't talk to him he was a puffed up , chest out big fellow but prick him and he would collapse" I'm wasn't aware til reading yesterday that the Canadian Gov't threatened to withold aircrew til the matter of keeping RCAF aircrew together was fixed . Another interesting tid bit was the RCAF was not going to fly with Tiger Force but the Gov't wanted to work with the USAAF/USN

 

[Lighthunmust]

reading Official History of RCAF vol 3 and this is AVM Curtiss RCAF statement about Leigh Mallory "Leigh Mallory was one of those opposed to Canadianization , he was a big fellow and full of hot air, you couldn't talk to him he was a puffed up , chest out big fellow but prick him and he would collapse"

In other words, he was a classic bully. Defeated bullies frequently resort to passive aggressive behavior and sabotage to retaliate for their damaged egos. This makes me think placing revisionist history in official records is not inconceivable.