Ticked off

[billrunnels]

About a month after VE- Day I was transferred to the 358th Bomb Group, 548th Squadron. One day I had just finished a training flight and was walking back to the squadron area. A person from the sidewalk on the other side of the street yelled " Lieutenant, come over here". I did and he proceeded to chew me out for not saluting him. It was hard to take as he was a desk jockey 1st Lieutenant. I was put on report and had to spend an hour with others on report in close order drill. This is the only time while in the service that I was mad enough to kill.

 

[pbehn]

You were certainly not alone there Bill. Harry Patch "The Last Tommy" described in his autobiography how, after the armistice was signed in WW1 those who joined up or were conscripted for "the duration of hostilities" took a dim view of anyone trying to impose army discipline since there were no longer any hostilities, there were some mutinies against it and very quickly the boys were sent home.

 

[billrunnels]

You were certainly not alone there Bill. Harry Patch "The Last Tommy" described in his autobiography how, after the armistice was signed in WW1 those who joined up or were conscripted for "the duration of hostilities" took a dim view of anyone trying to impose army discipline since there were no longer any hostilities, there were some mutinies against it and very quickly the boys were sent home.

The fact that he was on the other side of the street was upsetting. I couldn't tell whether his bars were silver or gold from that distance. Apparently his eye sight was better than mine.

 

[pbehn]

The fact that he was on the other side of the street was upsetting. I couldn't tell whether his bars were silver or gold from that distance. Apparently his eye sight was better than mine.

Or he had seen you before and taken note? I have read about similar pettiness coming into the services after the battle was over.

 

[billrunnels]

Or he had seen you before and taken note? I have read about similar pettiness coming into the services after the battle was over.

That probably was the case because I had been on the base such a short time. The only person I knew was the Squadron Bombardier.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Happened to me in the last week before I was released from active duty. I was on a medical hold and living in the transient barracks when the base went on lockdown because a hijacked civilian jetliner was inbound for fuel and they were expecting a hostage standoff situation. "Boot camp rules" were put in effect, and everybody had to march everywhere in formation and be logged out and in everywhere. I was put in charge of a group of 23 guys to march from the chow hall to the barracks, when we were accosted by the base security officer, an aviator of dubious competence who revelled in his collateral duty assignment and was notorious for his attitude towards enlisted folk. I promptly called "Eyes right, hand salute!" to no avail as we were halted and I was dressed down for sloppy marching, disrespect to a superior officer, and poor leadership and "lack of control of my troops". Turns out the entire rear rank had given him a "one finger salute" (guess which finger!). Did he take it out on them? NO, it happened on my watch! Those guys in the back row were all enlisted crew members on the itinerant ELINT EC121, and the only folks around who actually played footsie with the bad guys on a regular basis. I got sent to Captain's mast because the Captain talked his overeager security officer out of a court martial. At mast, he assigned me to "Happy Hour" (an hour of 96 count manual of arms in the tropical heat in sweater, peacoat and raincoat with an M1), and then apologized for the "miscarriage of justice". Said he realized it was unfair, but he was stuck with the lieutenant, and couldn't undermine him in his job. Said he could be talked into reconsidering if I elected to re-up. (That's how desperate the Navy was post-Vietnam).
So I went to happy hour alone under the supervision of a thoroughly disgusted Senior Chief Gunners Mate who cut me miles of slack. Said "You'd be a fool to stay in after this; enjoy your civilian life, and good luck!"
Cheers
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

Happened to me in the last week before I was released from active duty. I was on a medical hold and living in the transient barracks when the base went on lockdown because a hijacked civilian jetliner was inbound for fuel and they were expecting a hostage standoff situation. "Boot camp rules" were put in ffect
, and everybody had to march everywhere in formation and be logged out and in everywhere. I was put in charge of a group of 23 guys to march from the chow hall to the barracks, when we were accosted by the base security officer, an aviator of dubious competence who revelled in his collateral duty assignment and was notorious for his attitude towards enlisted folk. I promptly called "Eyes right, hand salute!" to no avail as we were halted and I was dressed down for sloppy marching, disrespect to a superior officer, and poor leadership and "lack of control of my troops". Turns out the entire rear rank had given him a "one finger salute" (guess which finger!). Did he take it out on them? NO, it happened on my watch! Those guys in the back row were all enlisted crew members on the itinerant ELINT EC121, and the only folks around who actually played footsie with the bad guys on a regular basis. I got sent to Captain's mast because the Captain talked his overeager security officer out of a court martial. At mast, he assigned me to "Happy Hour" (an hour of 96 count manual of arms in the tropical heat in sweater, peacoat and raincoat with an M1), and then apologized for the "miscarriage of justice". Said he realized it was unfair, but he was stuck with the lieutenant, and couldn't undermine him in his job. Said he could be talked into reconsidering if I elected to re-up. (That's how desperate the Navy was post-Vietnam).
So I went to happy hour alone under the supervision of a thoroughly disgusted Senior Chief Gunners Mate who cut me miles of slack. Said "You'd be a fool to stay in after this; enjoy your civilian life, and good luck!"
Cheers
Wes

Wes........thanks for sharing. My experience was a piece of cake compared to yours.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Wes........thanks for sharing. My experience was a piece of cake compared to yours.

Just goes to show you there's no escaping military stupidity. You got to do what you're assigned with the people you've got. Play the hand you're dealt. REMFs will always be with us, no matter where we are.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[pbehn]

Just goes to show you there's no escaping military stupidity. You got to do what you're assigned with the people you've got. Play the hand you're dealt.
Cheers,
Wes

I didn't serve in the military but worked in Saudi Arabia with many who did. My boss there was ex army, served post war in Palestine in the 1950s and by the time I met him in the 1980s was as mad as a box of frogs. On my last day in the Kingdom he came into the test house with a huge tray of samples to be polished, etched and tested for hardness, that is about two days work. When I said I couldn't do it, he said nothing, just walked out and walked into the directors office and DEMANDED that I should be sacked. The director had more of a finger on the pulse of his business told him "He is going home, exit only George you silly old c@nt, get a grip man". My work friends from the Philippines were in the accountants office next door and told me about the fool said when they took me to the airport. Leaving Saudi Arabia on an exit only visa is a great feeling but that exchange had me laughing all the way to my front door.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

He who laughs last laughs best. Stick it to that sort of MF every chance you get and go away laughing. That's the most damage that can be done those types.
There's a huge gulf between proper military behavior and a martinet, but some have their chest puffed out so far they can't see where they're putting their feet and fall right in.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

was as mad as a box of frogs.

Sounds like dumb as a box of rocks as well.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[at6]

About a month after VE- Day I was transferred to the 358th Bomb Group, 548th Squadron. One day I had just finished a training flight and was walking back to the squadron area. A person from the sidewalk on the other side of the street yelled " Lieutenant, come over here". I did and he proceeded to chew me out for not saluting him. It was hard to take as he was a desk jockey 1st Lieutenant. I was put on report and had to spend an hour with others on report in close order drill. This is the only time while in the service that I was mad enough to kill.

Face it Bill. The world is full of a$$holes deserving of nothing more than a red hot poker up the a$$.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Face it Bill. The world is full of a$$holes deserving of nothing more than a red hot poker up the a$$.

Well, the base security officer lieutenant (see post #6) got his in the end. A couple of recently discharged E3 plane captains who still had the bumper stickers on their car drove onto the base early on 4th of July morning, got out the static display signage used for open houses, set it up on a hotpad F4 with LIVE WEAPONS on it, draped it with flag bunting, helped themselves to a tug, towed it out the main gate (wings folded) and headed for the scheduled parade downtown. The baffled young E2 Marine on the gate was handed a forged set of orders and WAVED THEM THROUGH! They got halfway across the bridge when they heard the sirens, yanked the distributor out of the tug, the safety pins from the weapons, and disappeared downtown leaving the Phantom blocking the bridge and immobilized with its Sidewinders and Zunis pointing downtown. Guess what happened to the lieutenant?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mikewint]

ONE of the "perks?" of SF (at least in those early days) was that VERY few forked with you/us and once in beautiful, friendly Vietnam there was nothing much anyone could do to you. Heck a nice safe brig with no one shooting at you, bunks, clean sheets, showers, clean, non-iodized WATER, and three squares (no ham and Mo-fos) a day would have been a little slice of heaven.
The Army in its infinite wisdom sent us there with heavy leather boots and heavy weight canvas BDs in OD green with bright white and yellow patches. Now nothing in Vietnam is OD green (might as well have been Blaze Orange) and the bright white and yellow patches all shouted "Here I am, Please shoot!" The Army refused any type of Cammo so some guys sent home for sets of "Duck Hunter Cammo gear". For us, working with the Nungs, Yards, and Mercs became aware of and quickly transitioned into wearing those good old Tiger Stripes. They quickly became our "de facto" uniform blending perfectly with the jungle.
On one of our very few and rare liberties about 6 of us went to Saigon for some R&R. Sitting at an outdoor cafe we were spotted by a Major in full dress uniform from Supply. In Colonel Bogey fashion he marched over and demanded to know WHO we were and WHAT our unit was and Why we were not IN UNIFORM. We just snickered and ignored him which made him madder and redder by the minute. His tirade began to draw a crowd and that would bring MPs sooner or later. Only one thing to do. We picked him up bodily and carried him about half a block and threw him into the Saigon River. Now keep in mind that there were a thousand or so various buildings built out onto the river. At the back of each were the toilets (a hole in the floor) not to mention a thousand or so river people living on boats plus assorted pigs, chickens, goats, water buffaloes, etc. The "river" was more like an open sewer.
Needless to say there was a holy poopstorm the next day but our attitude was "what are you going to do? Send me to Vietnam?". Any punishment would have removed us from the field where we and our CIDG forces were very much needed. The brass were stumped and our officers had the same attitude. So a half-hearted verbal dressing down and back to the jungle. I can still see the look on that Major's face as he went under...

 

[XBe02Drvr]

We picked him up bodily and carried him about half a block and threw him into the Saigon River.

Good thing it was downtown, not the bush. Better the river than a frag party!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mikewint]

All of that Shite came much latter. During the 10 plus years of American involvement the total cases came to 230. Or less than your chances of becoming a homicide victim in Berkeley California. From about 1970 – 1972 every soldier was keenly aware the U.S. troops were being pulled out of Vietnam. Draftees often had been involved in the anti-war movement and were inclined to question military authority. Judges during the period often gave convicted criminals the choice of Army or Jail. A good number of the intentional homicides committed during this period were by these sociopaths.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

All of that Shite came much latter. During the 10 plus years of American involvement the total cases came to 230. Or less than your chances of becoming a homicide victim in Berkeley California. From about 1970 – 1972 every soldier was keenly aware the U.S. troops were being pulled out of Vietnam. Draftees often had been involved in the anti-war movement and were inclined to question military authority. Judges during the period often gave convicted criminals the choice of Army or Jail. A good number of the intentional homicides committed during this period were by these sociopaths.

As early as fall 1967 I could see that coming and elected to drop out of Army ROTC and finish school, then go enlisted in whichever service would take me. We lost that war the day we started committing large numbers of poorly trained and equipped conventional troops to a situation that called for a SF type approach. I saw a lot more of the real Army than the average entry level ROTC student does, and I could see a disaster in the making.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mikewint]

We lost that war

The Vietnam War was lost in the American media.

In 1968 Eddie Adams an AP photographer took a photo of General Nguyen Ngoc Luan of Saigon's Security Forces executing a VC prisoner. This photo won a Pulitzer Prize in 1969 and was widely portrayed as evidence of Saigon's corruption, inhumanity, and injustice.These evils had caused the heroic Viet Cong to rebel and begin their civil war.
That the prisoner was the head of a terrorist squad, that he had just been captured in the home of one of Nguyen's top officers. That he and 5 others had just killed and tortured the officer, his mother and father, his wife and their 4 children was never mentioned in any American News report. Adams protests, even to his dying day, that this act was "wholly justified given the nature of the crime and guerilla nature of the War." were never given any press coverage.
On 8 June 72, AP photographer Nick Ùt (a Vietnamese national) covering an ARVN attack on the village of Trang Bang, which had been captured and occupied two days earlier by NVA forces took this photo of 9 YO Kim Phuc running naked from the village where a VNAF Vietnamese pilot had dropped napalm.
Media in the U.S. widely claimed this to be a U.S. atrocity, Evidence of the brutal way the US military conducted the War. While U.S. forces had supplied the napalm NO Americans were involved in any capacity whatsoever. U.S. forces had NO authority over any ARVN command.
During WWII the American media operated under strict wartime secrecy laws. The Media were expressly forbidden to show the bodies of dead soldiers. Try to find ANY history book, newsreel footage, or newspaper photo from that time period that shows a dead American GI. Try to find any photos of a soldier who had lost both legs to a German mine. Find any Photos of the thousands of Marines dying to capture islands no one could even find on a map? Islands we gave back after the war.
Imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on the "Battle of the Bulge": "despite Allied efforts, the enemy still has the means to mount a major offensive, and therefore the war in Europe is unwinable." Sound stupid? Yet Walter felt free to say this about Tet. Big-time reporters like Morley Safer, Charles Kuralt, etc. rarely left the comforts of Saigon.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

All true, Mike, we did indeed lose the propaganda war, but do you think even with WWII style media control, could the social and economic effects of hundreds of thousands of poorly trained, poorly equipped, and poorly led low morale troops been overcome to "win" the war? How do you win a war without the hearts and minds of the people? Their view of "defenders" so easily becomes "occupiers". You were there. I was not. Tell me/us!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

The Vietnam War was lost in the American media.

In 1968 Eddie Adams an AP photographer took a photo of General Nguyen Ngoc Luan of Saigon's Security Forces executing a VC prisoner. This photo won a Pulitzer Prize in 1969 and was widely portrayed as evidence of Saigon's corruption, inhumanity, and injustice.These evils had caused the heroic Viet Cong to rebel and begin their civil war.
That the prisoner was the head of a terrorist squad, that he had just been captured in the home of one of Nguyen's top officers. That he and 5 others had just killed and tortured the officer, his mother and father, his wife and their 4 children was never mentioned in any American News report. Adams protests, even to his dying day, that this act was "wholly justified given the nature of the crime and guerilla nature of the War." were never given any press coverage.
On 8 June 72, AP photographer Nick Ùt (a Vietnamese national) covering an ARVN attack on the village of Trang Bang, which had been captured and occupied two days earlier by NVA forces took this photo of 9 YO Kim Phuc running naked from the village where a VNAF Vietnamese pilot had dropped napalm.
Media in the U.S. widely claimed this to be a U.S. atrocity, Evidence of the brutal way the US military conducted the War. While U.S. forces had supplied the napalm NO Americans were involved in any capacity whatsoever. U.S. forces had NO authority over any ARVN command.
During WWII the American media operated under strict wartime secrecy laws. The Media were expressly forbidden to show the bodies of dead soldiers. Try to find ANY history book, newsreel footage, or newspaper photo from that time period that shows a dead American GI. Try to find any photos of a soldier who had lost both legs to a German mine. Find any Photos of the thousands of Marines dying to capture islands no one could even find on a map? Islands we gave back after the war.
Imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on the "Battle of the Bulge": "despite Allied efforts, the enemy still has the means to mount a major offensive, and therefore the war in Europe is unwinable." Sound stupid? Yet Walter felt free to say this about Tet. Big-time reporters like Morley Safer, Charles Kuralt, etc. rarely left the comforts of Saigon.

I have no opinion on the Vietnam War simply because I was not directly involved. However, I do have opinions on WWII. I tend to agree with the operation being under strict wartime secrecy laws. There is no reason that the people back home should have been subjected to the gruesome acts that took place. It would have added greatly to their worry and concern. I certainly would not have wanted my folks to experience that added pressure. The information the public received was sufficient to create the most unified back home support this Nation has ever seen.