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Poor old George could have been made a case study. He left the UK in the 1950s in the army and then got a job in the oil industry. After 30 years in the middle east he didn't speak a word of Arabic or any other language, he didn't actually know much about where he was or what he was doing but he was an expert in protecting his own "job" which amounted to get everyone else to do his job. He had earned a fortune and was very wealthy, he had a small hotel in Bournemouth where pretty much owning a property of any kind means you are a millionaire. BUT, you couldn't speak to him about anything, his world was informed by Saudi TV, he always took less leave than he was entitled to and looked much happier coming back than he was when leaving. His life had been holidays in holiday spots for decades and a few visits to the family and the hotel. He lived on chicken wings and cup-a-soups so his wife could buy his daughters a new car every year. If ever one man summed up "money isn't everything" it was him. When I left it was March 1989, by the Summer I was in Paris working and had my wife with me. However Saddam had invaded Kuwait, where we worked in Al Khobar and what we did was no more. He will have been paid off and returned home, an exile from the 1950s into 1989 Bournemouth, like the guys who came back from India after their independence, completely disorientated.Sounds like dumb as a box of rocks as well.
Cheers,
Wes
Great storyGoing back to the original story, there was an apocryphal tale, usually attributed to the Marine, "Chesty" Puller, who came across a lieutenant who was making an enlisted man stand in place and salute him 100 times for failing to salute him the first time. Puller acknowledged that the enlisted man had made an error, but reminded the lieutenant that each salute must be returned. Puller ordered them to start over and that the lieutenant return each of the 100 salutes.
Thanks, Mike, for your service and your insight. I would expect you SF folks to have the best equipment and training, but what about the "straight leg" guys? The army I saw (we were pressed into service as "aggressors" weekends and school breaks because of the training our advisor, an SF Major returned from Laos, put us through) was mired in the concepts and equipment of a tank war in Europe and clueless about "any of that sneaky-poo stuff them snake-eaters do". The senior non-coms in charge of the training exercises were mostly alumni of Pusan and Choisin and the march to the Yalu, which framed their concept of war in Asia. The M16 was having issues at the time so the draftees were "temporarily" equipped with M14s hastily pulled from the discard pile (shortage of 7.62 blank ammo, they had to go "bang bang") but assured they would be supplied with new "Mattels" out in the bush. Those crusty old sergeants made no attempt to hide their contempt for the M16, nor for the "weak sisters", "Mama's boys" and "pinko commie hippies" they were prepping for combat. Supervision was so poor that the barracks next to us burned down at 2AM with the loss of 9 lives because the barracks fire watch (who was supposed to be on roving patrol) FELL ASLEEP IN A CHAIR AT THE SERGEANTS DESK WHILE SMOKING!! The only functional (out of 5) structural firetrucks on base died a quarter mile from the fire and one of OUR ROTC GUYS ran to the truck and came back with a hydrant wrench so we could have some water for a bucket brigade. The civil service firefighters from the truck (entire duty section, 3 guys!) at least got us organized and working together to save the adjacent structures. Those WWII "temporary" tar paper and pine tar buildings go up like a box of "strike anywhere" matches!US troops were not poorly equipped or trained. We had some of the best equipment and training in the world
Wes.......What time frame are you talking about and where did all of this take place?Thanks, Mike, for your service and your insight. I would expect you SF folks to have the best equipment and training, but what about the "straight leg" guys? The army I saw (we were pressed into service as "aggressors" weekends and school breaks because of the training our advisor, an SF Major returned from Laos, put us through) was mired in the concepts and equipment of a tank war in Europe and clueless about "any of that sneaky-poo stuff them snake-eaters do". The senior non-coms in charge of the training exercises were mostly alumni of Pusan and Choisin and the march to the Yalu, which framed their concept of war in Asia. The M16 was having issues at the time so the draftees were "temporarily" equipped with M14s hastily pulled from the discard pile (shortage of 7.62 blank ammo, they had to go "bang bang") but assured they would be supplied with new "Mattels" out in the bush. Those crusty old sergeants made no attempt to hide their contempt for the M16, nor for the "weak sisters", "Mama's boys" and "pinko commie hippies" they were prepping for combat. Supervision was so poor that the barracks next to us burned down at 2AM with the loss of 9 lives because the barracks fire watch (who was supposed to be on roving patrol) FELL ASLEEP IN A CHAIR AT THE SERGEANTS DESK WHILE SMOKING!! The only functional (out of 5) structural firetrucks on base died a quarter mile from the fire and one of OUR ROTC GUYS ran to the truck and came back with a hydrant wrench so we could have some water for a bucket brigade. The civil service firefighters from the truck (entire duty section, 3 guys!) at least got us organized and working together to save the adjacent structures. Those WWII "temporary" tar paper and pine tar buildings go up like a box of "strike anywhere" matches!
After a couple years of those kinds of experiences I was convinced our Army was our own worst enemy and that I didn't want to be "part of the problem". I could also see that it didn't seem likely to win us many friends and allies. Institutional incompetence seemed the order of the day.
Cheers,
Wes
Bill, good to see somebody's awake this hour of the day.Wes.......What time frame are you talking about and where did all of this take place?
Thanks for the response. I can understand stateside military bases being assigned used and antiquated equipment. The same was true in the Air Force. The new and more advanced was needed in the battle zones. I didn't realize the equipment used in training was old until I reached the ETO. They had equipment on the B-17's I had never seen which I learned to use, on the job so to speak. Had you been assigned to Ft Devens full time I think your acceptance of conditions, including moral, would have been more positive.Bill, good to see somebody's awake this hour of the day.
Ft Devens, MA 1965-1967. We went there seven or eight times in each of my freshman and sophomore years. It seemed the deeper we got into 'Nam the more resource-starved Devens got. From what I've been told that was par for the course for the stateside Army.
Cheers,
Wes
Bill, did you you get some sort of formal training on the new stuff when you got in theater, or did they toss you a tech manual to read on your way to Berlin? Or just give you a "no sweat, you'll figure it out"?They had equipment on the B-17's I had never seen which I learned to use,on the job so to speak.
Not classroom type training but administrated by a seasoned crew member one on one - "this is how it is done". This method was quick and very effective. I learned how to use the GEE equipment from a seasoned Navigator while on an engine slow timing flight on the date we arrived at the 303rd. Fifteen days later when returning from our first mission, bad weather on return, I used the GEE to make a safe landing.Bill, did you you get some sort of formal training on the new stuff when you got in theater, or did they toss you a tech manual to read on your way to Berlin? Or just give you a "no sweat, you'll figure it out"?
Before our first trip, Devens was touted to us as "the big time", the "real deal" and "how they do it downtown". What we experienced was a rude shock.
Cheers,
Wes
Really Good, Bill !About a month after VE- Day I was transferred to the 358th Bomb Group, 548th Squadron. One day I had just finished a training flight and was walking back to the squadron area. A person from the sidewalk on the other side of the street yelled " Lieutenant, come over here". I did and he proceeded to chew me out for not saluting him. It was hard to take as he was a desk jockey 1st Lieutenant. I was put on report and had to spend an hour with others on report in close order drill. This is the only time while in the service that I was mad enough to kill.
Wes,The Army Air Force Cadet Program entrance required two years of college until late 1942 then anyone who could pass the academic and physical tests would qualify. I graduated from high school May 7,1943. The following is a time line of my entrance and training:Bill how were you selected for bombardier training? Before or after commissioning, or did you start on preliminary flight training and then get switched to non-pilot aircrew? The old guy I worked for at the local flying service had been chief instructor at a military contract flight school, and he said his students were often yanked out of the course and "washed out" of the pilot track, not for any failure on their part, but because "needs of the service" had identified an impending critical shortage in some other aircrew specialty. He said the success rate for former flight students in completing aircrew training was far higher than for recruits from the general population. Did you observe this in action?
Cheers,
Wes
Same was true when I went to the University of Vermont in 1965, except the law was changed between my freshman and sophomore years. I could have dropped out of ROTC, but I'd already been sucked into Pershing Rifles and was learning all that counter insurgency stuff I figured I might need in the near future, so I stuck it out for another year. Then the sheer absurdity of it all settled in, and I bailed. Figured of push came to shove I'd go into the AF, Navy, or Guard. When push did come to shove, my friendly AF recruiter was nowhere to be found, the Guard was backlogged, and the Navy guy was right there with an offer I couldn't refuse.Wes, I went to the University of Illinois in Sept 1961. At that time, as a Land Grant University ALL Fresh and Soph males had to enroll in ROTC
We received 10 hours in a J-3 from civilian pilots while at CTD.Thanks, Bill. You definitely got serious training, and Uncle got a good return on his investment.
My old boss, Mr Roberti, had been chief instructor in a contract preflight/primary school attached to a College Training Detachment. They used J3 Cubs and gave cadets 30 hours just to "separate the sheep from the goats" and weed out the low aptitude candidates before they went to "real" AAF Primary Flight School. Sometime in 1944, the AAF determined that aircrew losses were less than forecast and abolished most of the contract flight schools. Mr Roberti's instructors all got orders to report to Marine boot camp before they even received their notices cancelling their draft deferments. Just in time for Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They all had civilian flight instructor licences, but few could pass an AAF or USN flight physical and none were allowed to apply. "We don't need aviators, we need infantry". At that time, I've heard, skilled male workers in war production plants were losing their deferments to feed the needs of the infantry. The women had learned to do the jobs, freeing up the men for combat. My mother in law was one of them.
Cheers,
Wes
Anti-war in 1963?? Man, you were ahead of the curve, WAY ahead of the curve! Most of us were so obsessed with Selma AL and freedom marches and Dr King, etc, we hardly knew Saigon and Hanoi existed.they actually had no right to revoke my student deferral but wanted to punish my anti-war activities