Top Destroyers Research — why the P-51 was king (1 Viewer)

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Me-109G6.
Kurfrst - Flugleistungen Me 109G - Baureihen
3,350kg. Loaded weight. Armed with 2 x MG131 plus 1 x MG151.
215kg. Additional weight for 1 x MG151/20 under each wing.
I could not find a Luftwaffe data sheet for an aircraft armed with 3 x 30mm Mk108 cannon. However the weight difference would be small.
30mm Mk108 cannon weight = 58kg.
20mm MG151/20 cannon weight = 42 kg.
So.....
Loaded weight with 3 x 30mm Mk108 cannon should be about 3,600kg.

Spitfire Mk IX.
Spitfire Mk IX Performance Trials
7.450 lbs. Loaded Weight.

P51D.
North American P-51 Mustang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
9,200 lbs. Loaded Weight.

The Me-109 and Spitfire weigh approximately the same. Both have an excellent power to weight ratio compared to contemporary fighter aircraft like the P-51D.
 
The problem wasn't just this weighs X and this weighs Y. From the basic design the RAF replaced 4 x LMG with 2 x 20mm. Germany added 2 x 30mm and replaced a 20mm with a 30mm as well as adding the additional drag from the underwing mounting

The problem was the impact on handling. The Me109 was badly impacted and all parties recognised that it transformed its agility. The additional weapons on the Spit impacted its climb but its general agilty was untouched. The official comparison of the Spit Vc with 4 x 20mm and the Normal Spit Vb concluded
There is no noticable difference between the handling characteristics of this aeroplane and other Spitfire V types.Spitfire Mk V Performance Testing
This is the key difference, the Spit could handle the weight better than the 109.
 
There is also climb, turn rate or turning circle, rate of roll, rate of roll acceleration (aileron response) stability in 3 axis, and not the least, landing speed or landing characteristics.
Maybe a few I left out.
The under wing guns may not have affected some of these but there is a lot more to handling characteristics and impacting flying quality than just top speed changes.
 
The Me-109G with wing mounted cannon max speed was 8kph slower (per the Luftwaffe data sheet). I wouldn't call that "badly impacted".

The following is from Kurfurst site

Me 109 G-6/R6:
"- What about the Cannon Messerschmitt?
Kössi (Karhila) said, "I can fly her, I take her." But I said, very well, I don't want... She was such an unwieldy one. I got in a dogfight flying one against (P-38) Lightnings and was unable even to climb up to them. They were a little higher, and I tried to climb to get at them but ran out of speed... I don't know how Kössi managed to fly her. He must have his own tricks or he had a different starting point. I had to fly one in battle only two or three times.

My understanding is that the Me 109's with the extra cannon needed an escort themselves due to the drop in agility. They were vulnerable to escorting fighters.
 
The three key factors that set the Mustang B/C/D/K apart were:

The best aerodynamics of any piston engine fighter. Lowest drag, coupled with additional thrust due to Meridith Effect of radiator cooling design. Only the jets had a comparable CDo. This was a 'hidden advantage' because the 51 retained energy better than comparable high Hp, comparable (and lower) wing loading adversaries because it bled less energy due to drag in manuevers.

Great internal fuel capacity with 192 gallons in the wing, 85 (operationally reduced later to 65) gallons in the fuselage tank, and capability of attching two 110 gallon tanks for combat operations.

A near perfect match of an engine to the 'Primary Mission' - namely the Merlin with two stage supercharger for optimal performance at ~ 15,000 and 25,000 feet depending on the dash number.

Combine that with pretty good wing loading, pretty good firepower, and pretty good manueverability - it was able to achieve near parity in turn, roll, and climb (better than some adversaries, slightly worse than others), very good dive and significant advantage in speed - over Berlin. Over Tokyo it had a disadvantage in climb and turn but still great performance at B-29 altitudes for daylight missions.
 
The Me-109G with wing mounted cannon max speed was 8kph slower (per the Luftwaffe data sheet). I wouldn't call that "badly impacted".

Consider that the impact wasn't so much to speed but to turn and climb due to the extra weight and increased drag and rolling moment inertia...

so moving from near parity or superior characteristic (turn, speed, climb, acceleration, roll) to less than parity or neutral for that which was once an advantage is very important versus all the 109G contemporary adversaries.
 
How much of an impact?

Me-109s were known for having an excellent rate of climb compared to contemporary fighter aircraft. You could lower the climb by a few hundred feet per minute and still be superior to most of the competition.
 
How much of an impact?

Me-109s were known for having an excellent rate of climb compared to contemporary fighter aircraft. You could lower the climb by a few hundred feet per minute and still be superior to most of the competition.

Enough of an impact that the LW quit putting Gondolas on Me 109G6 after introduction of Mustangs proved that the diminished performance in speed, climb and acceleration was life (and mission) threatening.

As you know the underwing armament was installed to make the 109 a better B-17/B-24 destroyer - all good absent fighter escort, but bad idea against a fighter that was already 30-50mph faster at 25K and had near equal performance in turn and climb.

That airplane found it difficult to evade, once engaged.
 
LW quit putting Gondolas on Me 109G6 after introduction of Mustangs
If P-51s are the issue then we are talking about only the final year of the war. By then I believe the bomber-destroyer role had mostly been assumed by specialized versions of the Fw-190. Which makes sense since the Fw-190 had a greater payload then the lightweight Me-109. The Fw-190A8 could carry serious firepower plus decent armor to protect the pilot from .50cal MG fire. Such a heavily loaded aircraft isn't competitive vs enemy fighters except in a dive. That's the price you pay for survival from massed B-17 machinegun fire. It also dictates your tactics. Dive through the bomber formation and keep going, letting Me-109s tangle with the escort fighters.

Fw-190A8/R1. 6 x MG151/20 cannon plus 2 x MG.
Fw-190A8/R2. 2 x MG151/20. 2 x 30mm Mk108. plus 2 x MG.
Fw-190A8/R3. same as R2 variant except 30mm cannon mounted differently.
Fw-190A8/R6. Two underwing launchers for 21cm rockets.
 
When we talk about fighters in WW2, the first one jump out from our brain would be P-51 Mustang, the most fierce, powerful, violent fighter for combat in air in that era we will say so.
Yes, the bubble canopy, the rectangular shaped wing makes it seemingly more handsome, neat, proportional or pulchritude even we shall say.
Nevertheless, we are not judging lady or playboy here, we ought to support self opinion by data study.
Then here is mine:
6ymmiu.png

If we change it via sort in terms of unit power, we will see the P-51 down to the 15th far out of top ten.
34inzlz.png

If we exchange then in terms of Wing Load, the P-51 still sit on fifth seat
27xelh.png

So what made Mustang so impressive? Merely nice-looking or really outstanding on specification?


As in sport you can only judge a plane by its peers, the hurricane in 1940 turned back more bomber raids than any other plane IMHO...but that isnt a claim of superity, rightly or wrongly some planes just have a brief time in the sun. The LW had to stop daylight attacks on the UK due to losses, most losses especially for bombers were due to hurricanes QED hurricane was the best destroyer (the spitfire and Chain home played a part too but that isnt the question)
 
That pretty well sums up my opinion of the P-51. For a little over a year it was an effective bomber escort. By the spring of 1945 it was approaching obsolescence due to the introduction of jet fighter aircraft.
 
I agree.

Consequently I wouldn't call late war piston engine aircraft like the P-51 and Fw190D9 "king". Most of WWII was fought without them and they were outdated as soon as the war ended.
 
If P-51s are the issue then we are talking about only the final year of the war. By then I believe the bomber-destroyer role had mostly been assumed by specialized versions of the Fw-190. Which makes sense since the Fw-190 had a greater payload then the lightweight Me-109. The Fw-190A8 could carry serious firepower plus decent armor to protect the pilot from .50cal MG fire. Such a heavily loaded aircraft isn't competitive vs enemy fighters except in a dive. That's the price you pay for survival from massed B-17 machinegun fire. It also dictates your tactics. Dive through the bomber formation and keep going, letting Me-109s tangle with the escort fighters.

Fw-190A8/R1. 6 x MG151/20 cannon plus 2 x MG.
Fw-190A8/R2. 2 x MG151/20. 2 x 30mm Mk108. plus 2 x MG.
Fw-190A8/R3. same as R2 variant except 30mm cannon mounted differently.
Fw-190A8/R6. Two underwing launchers for 21cm rockets.

The point was about the performance reduction (which you perceived as slight with the addition of the underwing gondolas) and why that was important - was it not?

Point - the Mustang I entered combat ops in April 1942 and remained through the end of the war in Europe. The Mustang III/P-51B/C entered combat ops in December 1943. The war ended in September 1945.

The war for P-51 vs LW ended in May 1945. The P-51B/C/D was a crucial factor for 17 months as a high altitude escort and air supremacy fighter - for that specific role it was the best in WWII. Even in the PTO, where great numbers of excellent P-38s were available - it was the Mustang that deployed to Tinian and Iwo Jima, to provide daylight escort and starfing roles.

Point -In that specific role, it 'rendered' obsolete all bomber destroyers (save the Me 262 and arguably the Me 163) which did not have fighter escort. The Me 410, the Me 109G6/R4, the Me 110, the Ju 88, etc all disappeared during daylight war over Germany in the late July, 1944 timeframe. Even the Fw 190A-8 needed 109s for high cover (sans gondolas).

Point - the Me 109G w/underwing gondolas was driven from the sky in the April-May timeframe because 'it' could not effectively compete with the P-51B/C. Note - I said 'effectively' to emphasize that the performance reduction stripped away the Me 109s positive advantages (climb), worsened its neutral attributes (acceleration and roll) and diminished its already 'other' disadvantage (dash speed).
 
This was taken from Chuck Hawks web site which takes a look of fighters during WWII. I think from where we stand today and look back we could loose the importance perspective of the P-51 from the men that fought in campaign's across the world while we only see this plane still being flown today just for sport. I only offer this article as information but suggest to read all about the selection of aircraft the time the P-51 was flown and then you can make your own conclusion from his web site. I only respectfully suggest you might not realize of how this aircraft could have turn the war and other campaign's. This can bring about in essence of the statement of it being "King" while seeing it flight for sport today.

For the complete article please go to: <http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_fighter_planes.htm>
***************************************************************************************************
The Best Fighter Planes of World War II
The Bf 109, Spitfire, FW 190, P-51, Yak-3, A6M Zero, P-38, F4U and Ki-84
By Chuck Hawks

Due to the rapid advance of technology, the best fighter early in the war was never the best fighter late in the war.

European Theater, Early Period
In the European Theater of Operations, early years, there were two absolute standout fighter planes. Both were severely limited in range, but in a dogfight they reigned supreme in the ETO. Of course, I am talking about the British Supermarine Spitfire and the German Messerschmitt Bf 109.
The former was designed by R. J. Mitchell and the latter by Willie Messerschmitt. They were the standout air superiority fighters of the early years of the war in Europe and the leading members of the cast that fought the most famous air battle of them all, the Battle of Britain (not to slight the Hawker Hurricane, designed by Sidney Camm, which actually out numbered the Spitfire on the British side of the famous battle and scored more victories over German airplanes.


European Theater, Later Period
After the first couple of years, in the European theater, things become more complicated. During the 1939, 1940, and 1941, the Spitfire and Messerschmitt Bf 109 were clearly the dominant fighters. However, as the war wore on, many new designs entered combat.
In 1942 (really beginning late in 1941) the Focke-Wulf 190 appeared in numbers and immediately established a measure of superiority over the Spitfire Mk. V, already hard pressed by the Bf 109F. In 1942, the first year of the war for the U.S., American P-39 and P-40 fighters were generally out performed by the German Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf fighters and things looked a bit bleak for the Allies. However, when the Spitfire Mk. IX and the P-38 started to make their presence felt, things began to improve for the Allies.
In the Spring of 1943, the P-47B went into operation in England. The Focke-Wulf 190, up until now the premier fighter in the theater, was suddenly hard pressed by the big American fighter, particularly at high altitude. In mid-1943 the much improved P-38J started to arrive and the pressure on the Germans increased. The arrival at the end of 1943 of the P-51B, the long range escort fighter the Americans so desperately needed, marked the beginning of the end for the Luftwaffe. Able to escort the bombers all the way to Berlin and back, the Mustang left the Luftwaffe no place to regroup and train. The P-51 did to the Luftwaffe what the Bf 109 did not have the range to do to the RAF earlier in the war.
So while all of the above fighters played an important part in the war, it was the P-51 that turned out to be decisive. The Americans could have won their daylight air war over Germany with the improved P-38J and L or P-47D, both of which appeared in 1944, but in fact it was the P-51, more than any other single fighter, that did it. So it seems only fair to examine first the FW 190 and then the P-51 Mustang, as the two successive "bests" of the later part of the European war.

North American P-51 Mustang
Many top E.T.O. aces flew the P-51 Mustang. These included Captain Don Gentile (35 victories), Captain John Godfrey (31 victories), Colonel Eagleston (23 victories), Major James Howard (the only American ace in both theaters of the war--6 victories in China flying P-40's and 6 victories in Europe flying P-51's), Chuck Yeager (who later became the first man to break the sound barrier) and Colonel Donald Blakeslee (15 victories and C.O. of the famous 4th Fighter Group). The 4th FG destroyed over 1,000 German aircraft, more than any other American fighter group in WW II.
The Mustang story began in 1940 when the British contacted North American Aviation with a request to build fighters for the RAF. North American was willing, and they offered to design and build a new fighter that would meet British requirements, and be easy to mass produce. In only 100 days NAA rolled out the first prototype Mustang. By November 1941 the first of over 600 aircraft produced under British contract were delivered to the RAF.
The new fighter incorporated some advanced ideas, in particular a laminar flow wing of thin cross section, which allowed the Mustang to avoid most of the "compressibility" dive problems that plagued many other high performance fighters of the time. Two of the first ten Mustangs built were taken to Wright Field, at Dayton Ohio, for testing by the AAF, which designated them XP-51.
The 1,150 hp. Allison F-series V-12 powered the early Mustang models. This resulted in poor high altitude performance, so the RAF used their Mustang I (P-51) and II (P-51A) models for low altitude ground attack and reconnaissance duties.
The Mustang I had a top speed of 370 m.p.h. at 15,000 ft. Best climb at 11,300 ft. was 1,980 ft./min. An assortment of .30 and .50 caliber machine guns were carried, but the Mustang IA was armed with 4-20mm cannon. Handling and maneuverability were good. Like the FW 190, the P-51 was a pilot's airplane.
P-51A (Mustang II) production was divided between America and Britain. This model standardized armament as 4-.50 cal MG. (two per wing). There were ground attack versions of the P 51A in U.S. service, designated A-36A, which served the AAF in the North African campaign. There were also specialized photo reconnaissance versions of all major Mustang models, the F-6 series.
The decision was made to mass produce the outstanding Merlin engine under license in the United States. The P-51B and C models (Mustang III's in Britian), which entered service in December of 1943, were powered by the new Packard-built version of the Merlin V-12, driving a four bladed propeller. At the same time, the airframe was strengthened, the radiator was re-designed, the ailerons were improved, and racks for long range drop tanks or bombs were added under the wings.
The 1,450 hp. Packard/Merlin engine (1,595 hp. war emergency rating) gave the P-51B-7 a top speed of 445 m.p.h. Best climb was 3,320 ft./min. at 10,000 ft. The new Mustang carried 4-.50 caliber MG (two per wing), and up to 1,000 lbs. of external stores. Its range was an astounding 2,200 miles with two 150 gal. drop tanks. Endurance with drop tanks was 8.7 hours.
The new engine completely changed the character of the Mustang, turning it into a high altitude fighter suitable for bomber escort missions. It came at a crucial moment for the AAF daylight bombing campaign. Luftwaffe fighters were taking such a toll of un-escorted heavy bombers that the losses were becoming unsupportable. The great range of the P-51B-7 allowed it to escort the heavy bombers all the way to their targets deep inside Germany. In March of 1944, Mustangs went to Berlin. Eighth Air Force bomber losses plummeted, while Luftwaffe fighter losses skyrocketed.
Later in 1944 the famous P-51D model arrived. It sported a "tear drop" canopy for better all around vision and a more powerful 1,790 hp. version of the Packard/Merlin engine, along with many detail improvements. The armament was increased to 6-.50 caliber wing MG and all manner of external stores could be carried. Recognition of the D model is easy because of its teardrop canopy and the large fillet fin added in front of the vertical stabilizer. For the Luftwaffe, the end was at hand.
The final major production version of the Mustang was the P-51H. This re-designed model incorporated major improvements, as extensive in scope as those incorporated into the FW 190D or Spitfire Mk. 22.
In the H model, the structure was increased in strength by 10%, to allow higher "g" loads in combat maneuvers. No structural part was left in common with earlier models. Streamlining was improved to increase speed and stability was increased. A new version of the Packard/Merlin, incorporating water injection, delivered over 2000 hp. These changes resulted in the finest American fighter of the war. Speed was 486 m.p.h. at 30,000 ft. best climb rate was 5,350 ft./min. at 5,000 ft. Service ceiling was 41,600 ft.
Unlike most other American piston engine fighters, which were withdrawn from service soon after the end of WW II, the Mustang fought on, doing valuable ground support work in the Korean War. It was adopted by many other nations, too numerous to list here, and remained in service in some countries into the 1960's.
 
The Me109G-6/R-6 cannon boat could outmaneuver the Mustang (unknown variant) per British tests.

- Ivan.
 

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