Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

drgondog said:

In response to your thesis that the Bf 110 was a capable air fighter against good Allied s/e fighters. It wasn't - Ost or Sud or West.

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Could you be so kind to point where I do say that "the Bf 110 was a capable air fighter against good Allied s/e fighters"?*

One thing is to point that the Bf 110 wasn't the total PoS many belive it was as a day fighter since summer 1940 and that it had a value even in 1942 and quite another one to say that it was an überjäger.

I said the first, not the last.

If you manage to found "my thesis", please let me know. Maybe I can get an history degree.

*I can save you some time in the research if you want: nowhere.

Hi Vincenzo. A singularly well-worded reply. You are so right, you DID say multiplace. Sometimes, it might pay to read ALL the words, huh?

Mea culpa.

Escuadrilla Azul said:

Could you be so kind to point where I do say that "the Bf 110 was a capable air fighter against good Allied s/e fighters"?*

One thing is to point that the Bf 110 wasn't the total PoS many belive it was as a day fighter since summer 1940 and that it had a value even in 1942 and quite another one to say that it was an überjäger.

I said the first, not the last.

If you manage to found "my thesis", please let me know. Maybe I can get an history degree.

*I can save you some time in the research if you want: nowhere.

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Tell me in a paragraph why the Bf 110 was a better airfighter than the Brewster Bufalo or Hurricane or F4F

Escuadrilla Azul said:

Could you be so kind to point where I do say that "the Bf 110 was a capable air fighter against good Allied s/e fighters"?*

One thing is to point that the Bf 110 wasn't the total PoS many belive it was as a day fighter since summer 1940 and that it had a value even in 1942 and quite another one to say that it was an überjäger.

I said the first, not the last.

If you manage to found "my thesis", please let me know. Maybe I can get an history degree.

*I can save you some time in the research if you want: nowhere.

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The fundamental problem IMHO for this threads discussions lies in the headline of the thread, which mentions the word FIGHTER and unfortunately not Multi-role Aircraft

The only 2 engine fighter that is worth mentioning is only the P-38 since it was a true fighter aircraft and also multi-mission capable, even a Mosquito wasn't a capable fighter.
The only aircraft that might be worth a comparison to the P-38 is a Me 262 - but the latter isn't in that list.

As for the Bf 110:
The German word Jagdflugzeug (fighter aircraft) was never applied towards this aircraft - but Kampfzerstoerer (battle destroyer) Zerstoerer (destroyer) throughout it's specification and development time.
Schwerer Langstrecken Jaeger. (heavy long range fighter) was a term that only the fat man had applied towards the Bf 110 since at the time (very beginning of 1939) this aircraft was already heavily criticized by the Luftwaffe. Naturally Goering never admitted towards the shortcomings of the Bf 110 as his then intended/designated long-range mainstream fighter.
The Bf 110 from 1939 till April 1940 performed well due to known reasons - the Blitzkriegs Luftwaffe strategy - was foremost applied to destroy enemy aircraft's on the ground, which
off course admittedly does not exclude even a Bf 110 to down a fighter in the air.

Due to it's weaponry (impressive) and it's range (actually it's loitering time) the Luftwaffe (not Goering) placed it into the first Luftwaffe Night-fighter units in 1939 (and in this role it proved to be a very good and suitable aircraft - since no other aircraft type was suitable anyway) but it wasn't performing a dog-fighter mission, but just as the Mossie ( a search, and destroy mission towards bombers and for the latter even Fw 190's performing night bombing raids)

Due to it's restricted-fighter capabilities the 3./Erprobungsgruppe 210 was setup in Jun/July 1940 - prime objective was to find a suitable role for the aircraft - later this unit was
to become SKG 210. And all remaining Bf 110 (not many) of the BoB and those to come (newly produced) were placed into Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer wings) or Nightfighter wings from August 1940 onward or partially distributed into Bf 109 equipped Jagdgeschwader units till 1941.

The Bf 110 had a great time again (even as a fighter) during the Balkan/Greece campaign - for understandable reasons.
Once the Brits and the Russians had caught up replacing their destroyed fighter aircraft's, or bringing in added numbers of fighter aircraft's e.g. in the African theater - the Bf-110 needed and was escorted by Bf-109 on it's missions - since in general it didn't stand a chance against e.g. a P-40 or a fighter used by the Soviet's e.g. Hurricane, P-39 or a Yak 1 etc.

If you tend to refer towards kill stats (by the Bf 110-which some authers or researchers do) then you also need to reconsider as to how kills were attributed (especially during the
BoB period internally by the Luftwaffe wings.
My father (luckily only a short period) and three of his surviving pilot mates had flown the Bf 110 - therefore I am quite aware about the true extend of these kill claims in numbers, pilots and aircraft types being "awarded" those kills.

So if one sticks to the lists term "fighter" and it's given aircraft's - then IMHO P-38, Bf 110, Mossie, Beaufighter, etc.
If the Luftwaffe would have had absolute air-superiority from e.g. 1939 - 1944 - certainly the Bf 110 would have had a huge impact, but......

Mossie is number three, since I honestly wouldn't know about the Mossie having conducted day/light dog fights with fighters, maybe someone can enlighten me in that matter.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Jagdflieger said:

The fundamental problem IMHO for this threads discussions lies in the headline of the thread, which mentions the word FIGHTER and unfortunately not Multi-role Aircraft

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That isnt a problem, it is just a different discussion. Additionally "fighter" is taken to mean fighting other fighters. For much of the war there were fighters whos job was to bring down long range recon aircraft and bombers to protect shipping in the N Sea Atlantic and Med. Night fighting is a different "skill set" but viewed as very important as was "fighting" ships by keeping track of the big ones and sinking the small ones. Marseilles in N Africa took fighting to an absurd limit. He clocked up a big score which didnt include any bombers (though may have some fighter bombers). He had almost zero effect on the battle.

pbehn said:

That isnt a problem, it is just a different discussion. Additionally "fighter" is taken to mean fighting other fighters.

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Exactly - you just said it yourself.
And Marseilles (besides maybe eying for glory (awards) did what his unit was ordered to do - engaging other fighters in order to gain air-supremacy, so that the Bf 110 or Ju 87
could do their job. Aside from also being tasked to attack bombers - but which were usually escorted (for good reasons) by fighters.

Regards
Jagdflieger

GregP said:

Shot down more than Bf 109s combined? I don't think so; not even close. Perhaps you meant it shot down more airplanes than all other German night fighters combined. That is likely true.

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Thanks for catching my mistake, I've corrected my original post.

pbehn said:

That isnt a problem, it is just a different discussion. Additionally "fighter" is taken to mean fighting other fighters. For much of the war there were fighters whos job was to bring down long range recon aircraft and bombers to protect shipping in the N Sea Atlantic and Med. Night fighting is a different "skill set" but viewed as very important as was "fighting" ships by keeping track of the big ones and sinking the small ones. Marseilles in N Africa took fighting to an absurd limit. He clocked up a big score which didnt include any bombers (though may have some fighter bombers). He had almost zero effect on the battle.

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Distruction of the jagdwaffe by raf and usaaf comes to mind when reading your Marseille bit. That was all about killing fighters.

MarshBulb said:

Hi all,

I'm new here.

I thought you might enjoy this top 10 of twin-engined aircraft: Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

Look forward to chatting planes with you people

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I lost credibility in the writer of that linked article when I read: '...So, at the commencement of the Battle of Britain, in September 1940,...' What?

And then the usual 'catch-all' comment: '...While the Bf 110 had proven effective in circumstances where the Luftwaffe had air superiority, this was not the case over Britain,...' Well, neither was it the case for the Bf 109 E.


Over 500 losses for the Bf 109. Never seems to get mentioned, that...

J Jagdflieger there is an other two engine, no jet, pure fighter the Westland Whirlwind

Jagdflieger said:

Due to it's restricted-fighter capabilities the 3./Erprobungsgruppe 210 was setup in Jun/July 1940 - prime objective was to find a suitable role for the aircraft - later this unit was
to become SKG 210. And all remaining Bf 110 (not many) of the BoB and those to come (newly produced) were placed into Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer wings) or Nightfighter wings from August 1940 onward or partially distributed into Bf 109 equipped Jagdgeschwader units till 1941.

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Sorry, Jagdflieger, but you are all over the place with these coments.
3. Staffel, Erprobungsgruppe 210 was set up with the Bf 109 E. It already had a suitable role. In Erprobungsgruppe 210 it was a fighter-bomber.
The 3. Staffel of Erprobungsgruppe 210 set up at the start of the Battle of Britain did not become SKG 210. At the end of 1940 the pilots of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 moved to 4./JG 51.
A new 3. Staffel equipped with the Bf 110 was formed, and it was THIS formation of Erprobungsgruppe 210 (all Bf 110 equipped) that formed I./SKG 210 on 24th April 1941.
Don't quite understand this: '...all remaining Bf 110 (not many) of the BoB and those to come (newly produced) were placed into Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer wings) or Nightfighter wings from August 1940 onward or partially distributed into Bf 109 equipped Jagdgeschwader units till 1941...' There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB. Also, the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck. It was expanded later in the year from day ZG fighter units, once the Luftwaffe turned to night bombing, thus removing the need to day fighter escort to large day bomber formations.
Anyway, to get the correct shakedown on Erprobungsgruppe 210, the following may help you...

John Vasco said:

Sorry, Jagdflieger, but you are all over the place with these coments.
3. Staffel, Erprobungsgruppe 210 was set up with the Bf 109 E. It already had a suitable role. In Erprobungsgruppe 210 it was a fighter-bomber.
The 3. Staffel of Erprobungsgruppe 210 set up at the start of the Battle of Britain did not become SKG 210. At the end of 1940 the pilots of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 moved to 4./JG 51.
A new 3. Staffel equipped with the Bf 110 was formed, and it was THIS formation of Erprobungsgruppe 210 (all Bf 110 equipped) that formed I./SKG 210 on 24th April 1941.
Don't quite understand this: '...all remaining Bf 110 (not many) of the BoB and those to come (newly produced) were placed into Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer wings) or Nightfighter wings from August 1940 onward or partially distributed into Bf 109 equipped Jagdgeschwader units till 1941...' There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB. Also, the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck. It was expanded later in the year from day ZG fighter units, once the Luftwaffe turned to night bombing, thus removing the need to day fighter escort to large day bomber formations.
Anyway, to get the correct shakedown on Erprobungsgruppe 210, the following may help you...
View attachment 663217

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I will see if I can get this book.

From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions.

In the later formed SKG 210 this Stab unit flying Bf 109's was extended to a Stabsstaffel (that is were my father flew) complementing the SKG 210 with Bf 109's.
....end of 1940 the pilots of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 moved to 4./JG 51..... this I can't answer to right now, I would have to check up on that part.

.....There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB... Yes absolutely correct, but besides originally flying strike fighter missions they
were relegated by Goering to escort bombers together with Bf 109's - many-times unfortunately without Bf 109's. And furthermore to take on the tasks of the Bf 109 in
regards to engaging British fighters. (encouraging/demanding) Freie Jagd to be executed with the Bf 110.

.....the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck..... yes that is correct and I don;t seem to remember that I had stated anything in contrary.
But in that context, e.g. Bruno Stolle was already tasked with night flying training and evaluation of the Bf 110 being suitable for this job in end of 1938 to beginning of 1939
whilst being stationed at I. Zerstoerer-) Gruppe/Lehrgeschwader 1. So it wasn't Falck who came up with this idea - if that is what you might try to indicate.

Since you always like to bring up that statistic with e.g. Bf 110 having 290 claims and 196 losses (let's leave aside the issue with politically awarded kills), how many Bf 110
according to your knowledge were stationed in France, Belgium and Holland? or "nearby" if you prefer, same question from my side in regards to the Bf 109.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Jagdflieger said:

I will see if I can get this book.

From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions.

In the later formed SKG 210 this Stab unit flying Bf 109's was extended to a Stabsstaffel (that is were my father flew) complementing the SKG 210 with Bf 109's.
....end of 1940 the pilots of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 moved to 4./JG 51..... this I can't answer to right now, I would have to check up on that part.

.....There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB... Yes absolutely correct, but besides originally flying strike fighter missions they
were relegated by Goering to escort bombers together with Bf 109's - many-times unfortunately without Bf 109's. And furthermore to take on the tasks of the Bf 109 in
regards to engaging British fighters. (encouraging/demanding) Freie Jagd to be executed with the Bf 110.

.....the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck..... yes that is correct and I don;t seem to remember that I had stated anything in contrary.
But in that context, e.g. Bruno Stolle was already tasked with night flying training and evaluation of the Bf 110 being suitable for this job in end of 1938 to beginning of 1939
whilst being stationed at I. Zerstoerer-) Gruppe/Lehrgeschwader 1. So it wasn't Falck who came up with this idea - if that is what you might try to indicate.

Since you always like to bring up that statistic with e.g. Bf 110 having 290 claims and 196 losses (let's leave aside the issue with politically awarded kills), how many Bf 110
according to your knowledge were stationed in France, Belgium and Holland? or "nearby" if you prefer, same question from my side in regards to the Bf 109.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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Lots of questions in a single post! But I'll tackle them, and hopefully things will become clearer (for everyone).

1. '...From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions...'
The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel. The Gruppenstab flew only the Bf 110. The task of Erprobungsgruppe 210 was to carry out bombing attacks in a shallow dive on targets. That was it.

2. '...In the later formed SKG 210 this Stab unit flying Bf 109's was extended to a Stabsstaffel (that is were my father flew) complementing the SKG 210 with Bf 109's...'
This is incorrect. No Bf 109s were flown by SKG 210. The Geschwaderstab of SKG 210 (for those not aware of the full title of this unit, it was Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 - Fast bomber wing 210) only flew Bf 110s. When SKG 210 was re-designated Zerstörergeschwader 1 (ZG 1) on 4th January 1942, a third Gruppe was added (III./ZG 1), and it was this Gruppe that flew Bf 109 Es as fighter-bombers. First on the Russian Front, and later in the Med Theatre.

3. '...There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB... Yes absolutely correct, but besides originally flying strike fighter missions they were relegated by Goering to escort bombers together with Bf 109's - many-times unfortunately without Bf 109's. And furthermore to take on the tasks of the Bf 109 in regards to engaging British fighters. (encouraging/demanding) Freie Jagd to be executed with the Bf 110...'
There was no 'relegation' by Göring. It was the role of the pure Bf 110 fighter units to escort bombers. And that escort on many occasions involved them flying escort alongside Bf 109 units. And of course they took on British fighters when encountered...

4. '...the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck..... yes that is correct and I don;t seem to remember that I had stated anything in contrary.
But in that context, e.g. Bruno Stolle was already tasked with night flying training and evaluation of the Bf 110 being suitable for this job in end of 1938 to beginning of 1939 whilst being stationed at I. Zerstoerer-) Gruppe/Lehrgeschwader 1. So it wasn't Falck who came up with this idea - if that is what you might try to indicate...'
In setting out the time when NJG 1 was formed, I was simply stating a fact. Attempts had previously been made at intercepting dusk raids by Allied bombers, by Staffeln formed with the designation 'N', such as 10.(N)/JG 26, 10.(N)/JG 53 and 10.(N)/ZG 26. It was following the submission of a report by Wolfgang Falck regarding night interception that he was summoned and told to form the first official Nachtjagdgeschwader, NJG 1. It's all in here, and you should still be able to get a copy:


5. '...Since you always like to bring up that statistic with e.g. Bf 110 having 290 claims and 196 losses (let's leave aside the issue with politically awarded kills), how many Bf 110 according to your knowledge were stationed in France, Belgium and Holland?...'
For the Battle of Britain, the following Bf 110 units took part: ZG 2 (2 Gruppen); ZG26 (3 Gruppen); ZG 76 (3 Gruppen); V,(Z)/LG 1 (1 Gruppe); Erprobungsgruppe 210 (1 Gruppe); 7.(F)/LG 2 (1 Staffel); 4(F)/14 (1 Staffel). In addition to these units, Bf 110s were also scattered among the reconnaissance units. The exact number is not known. I./ZG 76 only flew one mission during the BoB, on 15th August 1940. Replacement aircraft were also received, but the exact numbers are not known, so it would be foolish to state an EXACT number of Bf 110s in action/available from 10th July to 31st October 1940. Aircrew attrition was also a factor, insofar as aircraft may have been available for a mission, but insufficient crews may have been available to fly them all.

6. '...same question from my side in regards to the Bf 109...'
As I have never undertaken an in-depth study of the Bf 109 in the BoB, I cannot answer that question for you.

I hope all of the foregoing clarifies things for you.

John Vasco said:

Lots of questions in a single post! But I'll tackle them, and hopefully things will become clearer (for everyone).

1. '...From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions...'
The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel. The Gruppenstab flew only the Bf 110. The task of Erprobungsgruppe 210 was to carry out bombing attacks in a shallow dive on targets. That was it.

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Not correct - I know what my Father flew

John Vasco said:

2. '...In the later formed SKG 210 this Stab unit flying Bf 109's was extended to a Stabsstaffel (that is were my father flew) complementing the SKG 210 with Bf 109's...'
This is incorrect. No Bf 109s were flown by SKG 210. The Geschwaderstab of SKG 210 (for those not aware of the full title of this unit, it was Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 - Fast bomber wing 210) only flew Bf 110s. When SKG 210 was re-designated Zerstörergeschwader 1 (ZG 1) on 4th January 1942, a third Gruppe was added (III./ZG 1), and it was this Gruppe that flew Bf 109 Es as fighter-bombers. First on the Russian Front, and later in the Med Theatre.

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Not correct - seen hundreds of photos from my fathers Photo-albums showing e.g. his unit in France incl. Bf-109 - and he never served in Russia or Africa/Med
No need to ask me for photos since unfortunately a family member had decided to upgrade his pocket-money in the mid 80's- but I know what I saw and what my father told me as to what aircraft's he flew in what period.

John Vasco said:

3. '...There were ZG units well before the BoB, and there were ZG units from the start of the BoB... Yes absolutely correct, but besides originally flying strike fighter missions they were relegated by Goering to escort bombers together with Bf 109's - many-times unfortunately without Bf 109's. And furthermore to take on the tasks of the Bf 109 in regards to engaging British fighters. (encouraging/demanding) Freie Jagd to be executed with the Bf 110...'
There was no 'relegation' by Göring. It was the role of the pure Bf 110 fighter units to escort bombers. And that escort on many occasions involved them flying escort alongside Bf 109 units. And of course they took on British fighters when encountered...

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Not correct - since the ZG units were ordered to do just that - for which they were not meant - resulting in the horrendous losses occuring from July onward.

John Vasco said:

4. '...the first nightfighter unit was formed in June 1940 (NJG 1) under Wolfgang Falck..... yes that is correct and I don;t seem to remember that I had stated anything in contrary.
But in that context, e.g. Bruno Stolle was already tasked with night flying training and evaluation of the Bf 110 being suitable for this job in end of 1938 to beginning of 1939 whilst being stationed at I. Zerstoerer-) Gruppe/Lehrgeschwader 1. So it wasn't Falck who came up with this idea - if that is what you might try to indicate...'
In setting out the time when NJG 1 was formed, I was simply stating a fact. Attempts had previously been made at intercepting dusk raids by Allied bombers, by Staffeln formed with the designation 'N', such as 10.(N)/JG 26, 10.(N)/JG 53 and 10.(N)/ZG 26. It was following the submission of a report by Wolfgang Falck regarding night interception that he was summoned and told to form the first official Nachtjagdgeschwader, NJG 1. It's all in here, and you should still be able to get a copy:

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Okay

John Vasco said:

View attachment 6632285. '...Since you always like to bring up that statistic with e.g. Bf 110 having 290 claims and 196 losses (let's leave aside the issue with politically awarded kills), how many Bf 110 according to your knowledge were stationed in France, Belgium and Holland?...'
For the Battle of Britain, the following Bf 110 units took part: ZG 2 (2 Gruppen); ZG26 (3 Gruppen); ZG 76 (3 Gruppen); V,(Z)/LG 1 (1 Gruppe); Erprobungsgruppe 210 (1 Gruppe); 7.(F)/LG 2 (1 Staffel); 4(F)/14 (1 Staffel). In addition to these units, Bf 110s were also scattered among the reconnaissance units. The exact number is not known. I./ZG 76 only flew one mission during the BoB, on 15th August 1940. Replacement aircraft were also received, but the exact numbers are not known, so it would be foolish to state an EXACT number of Bf 110s in action/available from 10th July to 31st October 1940. Aircrew attrition was also a factor, insofar as aircraft may have been available for a mission, but insufficient crews may have been available to fly them all.

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You bring in unfounded numbers such as Bf 110, 290 claims and 196 losses to proof that the Bf 110 was great - my question wasn't towards units but numbers, So? 230? 280? 500?
And please do not just state e.g. 280 but evidence in regards to your books showing a summary of the respective Geschwader with their respective numbers - shouldn't be a problem with you having written those books. The time frame needs to be according to the stats you cite - thanks

John Vasco said:

6. '...same question from my side in regards to the Bf 109...'
As I have never undertaken an in-depth study of the Bf 109 in the BoB, I cannot answer that question for you.

I hope all of the foregoing clarifies things for you.

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Okay, but then you should not cite unfounded stats to proof a point

Otherwise I guess we simply agree to disagree

Regards
Jagdflieger

The Battle of Britain Then and Now listing, 10 July to 31 October has the total all causes losses on operations as
Spitfire 353, Hurricane 569, Bf109 600, Bf110 248.
Bergstrom reports, July to October,
Spitfire 394, Hurricane 603, Bf109 534, Bf110 196
Luftwaffe Quartermaster reports as translated by the RAF, July to October
Bf109 600, Bf110 235, plus 18 night fighters.
Williamson Murray July to September (Murray uses the Luftwaffe Quartermaster reports)
Bf109 477, Bf110 223.

Williamson Murray, Luftwaffe, table IX says in the July to September period the Luftwaffe single engined fighter units lost 47% of their original strength, the twin engined units 66%. For May and June 1940 Murray reports the Luftwaffe single engined fighter units lost 19% of their original strength, the twin engined units 30%, for May to September, single engined fighter units lost 57% of their original strength, the twin engined units 97%,

Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The Battle of Britain Then and Now listing, 10 July to 31 October has the total all causes losses on operations as
Spitfire 353, Hurricane 569, Bf109 600, Bf110 248.
Bergstrom reports, July to October,
Spitfire 394, Hurricane 603, Bf109 534, Bf110 196
Luftwaffe Quartermaster reports as translated by the RAF, July to October
Bf109 600, Bf110 235, plus 18 night fighters.
Williamson Murray July to September (Murray uses the Luftwaffe Quartermaster reports)
Bf109 477, Bf110 223.

Williamson Murray, Luftwaffe, table IX says in the July to September period the Luftwaffe single engined fighter units lost 47% of their original strength, the twin engined units 66%. For May and June 1940 Murray reports the Luftwaffe single engined fighter units lost 19% of their original strength, the twin engined units 30%, for May to September, single engined fighter units lost 57% of their original strength, the twin engined units 97%,

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Thanks, that about the same figures that I have.
Your May to September stats confirm what my father and others told me, that more or less the entire active Bf110 fleet was wiped out.
The respective claimed kills by the Bf 110 would be another topic.

Now I just want to wait for Vasco to see his timeline in regards to his stats. - especially in regards to the kill claim period.
And the differentiation for loss stats between ZG and "fighter units" flying the Bf 110 - especially from July onward.

Regards
Jagdflieger

wlewisiii said:

I suppose the way I look at it, the way to understand these lists is to look at them and think "would I come back from a mission in one of them?"

The one twin I'd want to go into combat in WWII would be a gun nose A-20C. All the others are good aircraft, but if I had the choice, that's the one I think I could get into, fly the missions and be most likely to come back home. I'm probably wrong but what the heck, that's what these threads are for.

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Not in a fighter rich environment. It did not have single engine fighter performance.

Jagdflieger said:

Thanks, that about the same figures that I have.
Your May to September stats confirm what my father and others told me, that more or less the entire active Bf110 fleet was wiped out.
The respective claimed kills by the Bf 110 would be another topic.

Now I just want to wait for Vasco to see his timeline in regards to his stats. - especially in regards to the kill claim period.
And the differentiation for loss stats between ZG and "fighter units" flying the Bf 110 - especially from July onward.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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I'll answer this one first. They are not my stats. If you read my post correctly, they are stats compiled by Christer Bergström. He is easily contactable via his publishing company, or via Facebook. Challenge HIM on his figures.

If you can't explain or verify other writers stats, then I think you shouldn't use them to make a point.

As for your claim in regards to "pure fighter units" (JG) equiped with the Bf 110 during the BoB - I would be very interested to learn about these JG units.
As for your claim or books claim, in regards to Bf 109 not having existed or being used at Koeln-Ostheim and later by the Erpr.Gr.210 during the BoB, I would also be very
interested to learn about.
To avoid further miss-claims I do stand corrected that I wrote wrongly SKG 210 - but it was clear that I was referring to the BoB as such the correct term should have been
Erpr.Gr.210.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Jagdflieger said:

Thanks, that about the same figures that I have.
Your May to September stats confirm what my father and others told me, that more or less the entire active Bf110 fleet was wiped out.
The respective claimed kills by the Bf 110 would be another topic.

Now I just want to wait for Vasco to see his timeline in regards to his stats. - especially in regards to the kill claim period.
And the differentiation for loss stats between ZG and "fighter units" flying the Bf 110 - especially from July onward.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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That isnt what was said. What was the original strength? Over the full course of the battle how many were lost and replaced by new. They started with a lower number and are much easier to "lose" from operations, twice as many engines to get hit or worn out and more difficult to repair in makeshift airfields in France and Benelux.