Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

pbehn said:

That isnt what was said. What was the original strength? Over the full course of the battle how many were lost and replaced by new. They started with a lower number and are much easier to "lose" from operations, twice as many engines to get hit or worn out and more difficult to repair in makeshift airfields in France and Benelux.

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I don't quite get your meaning - to me it is off interest as to know as to how many were placed into action, not just how many they received. The ZG units suffered horrendous pilot losses not just aircraft's. New Bf 110's couldn't even be used due to not sufficient pilots being available. (new pilot crews were even partially excluded from missions, thanks to some Group and Wing Commanders with conscience and respect for pilots lives) BTW, these circumstances also happened at Bf 109 units.

E.g. ZG 26 from July to October lost around 90-100 aircraft's and around 120 pilots and crew.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Jagdflieger said:

1) Not correct - I know what my Father flew

2) Not correct - seen hundreds of photos from my fathers Photo-albums showing e.g. his unit in France incl. Bf-109 - and he never served in Russia or Africa/Med
No need to ask me for photos since unfortunately a family member had decided to upgrade his pocket-money in the mid 80's- but I know what I saw and what my father told me as to what aircraft's he flew in what period.

3) Not correct - since the ZG units were ordered to do just that - for which they were not meant - resulting in the horrendous losses occuring from July onward.

Okay

4) You bring in unfounded numbers such as Bf 110, 290 claims and 196 losses to proof that the Bf 110 was great - my question wasn't towards units but numbers, So? 230? 280? 500?
And please do not just state e.g. 280 but evidence in regards to your books showing a summary of the respective Geschwader with their respective numbers - shouldn't be a problem with you having written those books. The time frame needs to be according to the stats you cite - thanks

Okay, but then you should not cite unfounded stats to proof a point

Otherwise I guess we simply agree to disagree

Regards
Jagdflieger

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I have numbered your replies so it is easier to follow my responses.

1) I posted: '...The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel. The Gruppenstab flew only the Bf 110. The task of Erprobungsgruppe 210 was to carry out bombing attacks in a shallow dive on targets. That was it...' You replied: '...Not correct - I know what my Father flew...' OK, so you infer that your father flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210. Tell me his name. And I know what I posted was correct. And I can easily back it up with concrete information. Interviews with the following former Erprobungsgruppe 210 flying personnel: Wolfgang Schenck (pilot - 1. Staffel); Helmut Ortner (pilot - 1. Staffel); Werner Neumann (pilot - 1. Staffel); Otto von Steinhart (pilot - 1. Staffel); Edmund Ernst (Bordunfker - 1. Staffel); Karl Stoff (Bordfunker - 1. Staffel); Balthasar Aretz (pilot - 2. Staffel); Gerhard Schlee (Bordfunker - 2. Staffel); Werner Zwick (Bordfunker - 2. Staffel); Otto Hintze (pilot & Staffelkapitän - 3. Staffel); Karl-Fritz Schröder (Bordfunker - 3. Staffel). Correspondence with Willi Benedens (pilot zbV with Gruppenstab); Fritz Ebner (pilot with 2. Staffel); Peter Emmerich (pilot with 3. Staffel). Here's a photo taken at a reunion in the 1980s:

From left: Karl-Fritz Schröder; Karl Stoff; Wolfgang Schenck; me; Balthasar Aretz; Gerhard Schlee & Edmund Ernst.

Me with Otto Hintze at his home in Munich:

From left: Otto Hintze; me, and Eberhard von Treutschler d'Elsa (Staffelkapitän of 5./ZG 26 - wounded in action on 18th May 1940). d'Elsa lived in Munich, and arranged to meet me at Otto's house once he knew I was flying into Munich and had arranged to call in to see Otto.
So, with regard to the make-up of the Gruppenstab and the three Staffeln of Erprobungsgruppe 210, I can only say my sources are impeccable with regard to the aircraft that they flew. I know I am correct. So, once again, tell me your father's name if he flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210.

2) I posted: '...This is incorrect. No Bf 109s were flown by SKG 210. The Geschwaderstab of SKG 210 (for those not aware of the full title of this unit, it was Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 - Fast bomber wing 210) only flew Bf 110s. When SKG 210 was re-designated Zerstörergeschwader 1 (ZG 1) on 4th January 1942, a third Gruppe was added (III./ZG 1), and it was this Gruppe that flew Bf 109 Es as fighter-bombers. First on the Russian Front, and later in the Med Theatre...' You replied: '...Not correct - seen hundreds of photos from my fathers Photo-albums showing e.g. his unit in France incl. Bf-109 - and he never served in Russia or Africa/Med...' I will ask a further question: Did you father fly with Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 (SKG 210)? SKG 210 did not have a single Staffel flying Bf 109s. I do think you are grtting very confused with regard to your father's unit. Well, how do I know SKG 210 did not fly Bf 109s? Across the just over 8 months of that unit's existence, there is not a single reference to a Bf 109 being damaged or lost. Furthermore, having interviewed a lot of former members of SKG 210 at their reunions throughout the 1980s and 1990s, I was able to confirm the constitution of the unit without any shadow of a doubt. No Bf 109 Staffeln. Here's a shot of a group photo of one of the reunions (which was called the 'Wespentreffen'):

I am extreme left, front row.
As a result of my research, this volume was published:


3) I posted: '...There was no 'relegation' by Göring. It was the role of the pure Bf 110 fighter units to escort bombers. And that escort on many occasions involved them flying escort alongside Bf 109 units. And of course they took on British fighters when encountered...' You replied: '...Not correct - since the ZG units were ordered to do just that - for which they were not meant - resulting in the horrendous losses occuring from July onward...' What is not correct? 'since the ZG units were ordered to do just that' - escort bombers? Yes they were. Do I have to list the Bf 110 fighter pilots I interviewed as well? Horrendous losses - the Bf 109 fighter units suffered horrendous losses as well. Do you understand the concept of combat during the Battle of Britain? German fighters escorted German bombers. RAF fighters intercepted. Losses occurred on both sides, as the German fighters sought to protect the bombers by attacking the RAF fighters. Losses occurred on both sides inevitably. Son't you understand this simple scenario?

4) I've never claimed the Bfg 110 was great. But the figures show, given overclaiming on both sides in almost equal measure, that the Bf 110 fared no worse than the other three main fighters in the Battle of Britain. It is a myth that has been perpetrated for many decades that the Bf 110 was no good during the BoB, when in fact all four main fighters battered the hell out of each other from July to October 1940.


And to round this long post off, in case you have forgotten, tell me the name of your father who flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210.

Jagdflieger said:

If you can't explain or verify other writers stats, then I think you shouldn't use them to make a point.

As for your claim in regards to "pure fighter units" (JG) equiped with the Bf 110 during the BoB - I would be very interested to learn about these JG units.
As for your claim or books claim, in regards to Bf 109 not having existed or being used at Koeln-Ostheim and later by the Erpr.Gr.210 during the BoB, I would also be very
interested to learn about.
To avoid further miss-claims I do stand corrected that I wrote wrongly SKG 210 - but it was clear that I was referring to the BoB as such the correct term should have been
Erpr.Gr.210.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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'...As for your claim in regards to "pure fighter units" (JG) equiped with the Bf 110 during the BoB - I would be very interested to learn about these JG units....' What ARE you talking about! I have never claimed that. You really are not reading my posts correctly, and as a result are posting errors and falsehoods about what I have posted.

And with regards to the Bf 110, there were 'pure' fighter Bf 110 units, as opposed to the fighter-bombers of Erprobungsgruppe 210, and the Bf 110 C-5s of the reconnaissance units. There is a difference between all three...

Please read my posts correctly, and reply accordingly.

Jagdflieger said:

I don't quite get your meaning - to me it is off interest as to know as to how many were placed into action, not just how many they received. The ZG units suffered horrendous pilot losses not just aircraft's. New Bf 110's couldn't even be used due to not sufficient pilots being available. (new pilot crews were even partially excluded from missions, thanks to some Group and Wing Commanders with conscience and respect for pilots lives) BTW, these circumstances also happened at Bf 109 units.

E.g. ZG 26 from July to October lost around 90-100 aircraft's and around 120 pilots and crew.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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'...E.g. ZG 26 from July to October lost around 90-100 aircraft's and around 120 pilots and crew...'

According to the information I have, ZG 26 lost the following:
Aircrew: 97, with 2 others lost due to non-combat incidents.
Aircraft: 61, with 5 others lost due to non-combat accidents.
Sources: Information from the Luftwaffe GQM records, and Namentliche Verlustmeldungen.

Jagdflieger said:

If you can't explain or verify other writers stats, then I think you shouldn't use them to make a point.

As for your claim in regards to "pure fighter units" (JG) equiped with the Bf 110 during the BoB - I would be very interested to learn about these JG units.
As for your claim or books claim, in regards to Bf 109 not having existed or being used at Koeln-Ostheim and later by the Erpr.Gr.210 during the BoB, I would also be very
interested to learn about.
To avoid further miss-claims I do stand corrected that I wrote wrongly SKG 210 - but it was clear that I was referring to the BoB as such the correct term should have been
Erpr.Gr.210.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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Are you serious? Where have I said that the Bf 109 was not used at Köln-Ostheim and later by Erpr. Gr. 210 during the BoB? Are you really serious? I don't think you understand all that I write. Nor do you understand all that I know. So let me educate you further.
Otto Hintze, at the time Staffelkapitän of 4./186, moved with his Staffel to Köln-Ostheim upon the formation of Erprobungsgruppe 210, and his Staffel was re-designated 3. Staffel, Erprobungsgruppe 210 (3./Erpr. Gr. 210). On 10th July 1940 Erprobungsgruppe 210 moved to its permanent base at Denain, near Valenciennes. For missions against England, it first used St. Omer-Arques, but from 11th August 1940 it used Calais-Marck.

J Jagdflieger As I have asked previously, please provide the name of your father who flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210.

Jagdflieger said:

I don't quite get your meaning - to me it is off interest as to know as to how many were placed into action, not just how many they received. The ZG units suffered horrendous pilot losses not just aircraft's. New Bf 110's couldn't even be used due to not sufficient pilots being available. (new pilot crews were even partially excluded from missions, thanks to some Group and Wing Commanders with conscience and respect for pilots lives) BTW, these circumstances also happened at Bf 109 units.

E.g. ZG 26 from July to October lost around 90-100 aircraft's and around 120 pilots and crew.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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That is what happens in a war of attrition. When you express things in percentages the smaller the number of planes there are at the start the quicker you lose 100%. The number available depends on the production of new planes and the training of fresh pilots. Insufficient planes being produced and lack of pilots is not the fault of the aircraft itself, although it is true that a twin engined A/C needs more man hours and materials and training on a twin takes longer.

As I had already written I am referring to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) my father, as I had posted also earlier on never flew In Russia or Africa/Med when SKG 210 was
formed he had already long before translated to in around July 1940 to ZG 76 also flying at times the Bf 109 both aircraft types marked with the famous wasp emblem during the BoB. Loads of these aircraft's in his Photo-albums during the BoB.

In regards to supposedly no Bf 109 at Erpr.Gr.210 Koeln-Ostheim see: ULTRA report
Erprobungsgruppe 210

In regards to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) and their Bf 109's see quote:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4B 3./Erpr.Gr.210(Battle of Britain)

If you met all these people then how come that you are not even aware that there were no JG or "pure fighter units" equipped with Bf 110 during the BoB ???
They were termed all along ZG Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer squadrons) and not JG Jagdgeschwader (fighter squadrons) and as such used primarily for ground attack missions
and not as long range escort for Bombers into Poland, France, Holland etc.
And as I had also stated before, does not exclude engaging with fighters. However Goering's order that the ZG units are to participate in the role of escort fighters, was what decimated
almost a 100% of their aircraft's and pilots. Did these Luftwaffe veteran pilots never tell you that?

You never claimed that the Bf 110 was great - okay then why do you bring in unfounded stats that show a Bf 110 on par with others? into my posts were I clearly mentioned
that the Bf 110 was a total fail-investment? You even stated several times that the stories about the Bf 110 are wrong, criticizing all kind of authors who had written books about the subject and therefore tried to make a point out of it that the Bf 110 was not worse then a BF 109 - really, that kind of statement after you met all these vets???

As for SKG 210 - they had Bf 109 - you can even find original B/W photos of these aircraft's in the internet = brought in from ZG 1.
Or was it that ZG 1 brought in SKG 210? you are really starting to get me confused.

1. '...From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions...'
Your answer: The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel.

I was referring to Erpr.Gr.210 based at Koeln-Ostheim and you? France right? - then at least we got that straightened out.

Like I said, I know very well what my father flew, when and where and you will understand that I certainly do not own you or anyone else his name or respectively mine.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Jagdflieger said:

As I had already written I am referring to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) my father, as I had posted also earlier on never flew In Russia or Africa/Med when SKG 210 was
formed he had already long before translated to in around July 1940 to ZG 76 also flying at times the Bf 109 both aircraft types marked with the famous wasp emblem during the BoB. Loads of these aircraft's in his Photo-albums during the BoB.

In regards to supposedly no Bf 109 at Erpr.Gr.210 Koeln-Ostheim see: ULTRA report
Erprobungsgruppe 210

In regards to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) and their Bf 109's see quote:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4B 3./Erpr.Gr.210(Battle of Britain)

If you met all these people then how come that you are not even aware that there were no JG or "pure fighter units" equipped with Bf 110 during the BoB ???
They were termed all along ZG Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer squadrons) and not JG Jagdgeschwader (fighter squadrons) and as such used primarily for ground attack missions
and not as long range escort for Bombers into Poland, France, Holland etc.
And as I had also stated before, does not exclude engaging with fighters. However Goering's order that the ZG units are to participate in the role of escort fighters, was what decimated
almost a 100% of their aircraft's and pilots. Did these Luftwaffe veteran pilots never tell you that?

You never claimed that the Bf 110 was great - okay then why do you bring in unfounded stats that show a Bf 110 on par with others? into my posts were I clearly mentioned
that the Bf 110 was a total fail-investment? You even stated several times that the stories about the Bf 110 are wrong, criticizing all kind of authors who had written books about the subject and therefore tried to make a point out of it that the Bf 110 was not worse then a BF 109 - really, that kind of statement after you met all these vets???

As for SKG 210 - they had Bf 109 - you can even find original B/W photos of these aircraft's in the internet = brought in from ZG 1.
Or was it that ZG 1 brought in SKG 210? you are really starting to get me confused.

1. '...From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions...'
Your answer: The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel.

I was referring to Erpr.Gr.210 based at Koeln-Ostheim and you? France right? - then at least we got that straightened out.

Like I said, I know very well what my father flew, when and where and you will understand that I certainly do not own you or anyone else his name or respectively mine.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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So, at last you have established that your father flew with III./ZG 76. Prior to July 1940, this Gruppe was II./ZG 1. Now, can you give me his name, as I would be most interested to know who he was.

As for this: '...If you met all these people then how come that you are not even aware that there were no JG or "pure fighter units" equipped with Bf 110 during the BoB ???...' I have to question your understanding of my posts. I don't honestly think you are reading them correctly. Let me clarify things for you. The Jagdgeschwader units flying Bf 109 Es in the Battle of Britain can be termed 'pure' fighter units. Got that? OK, now let's move on. The Zerstörergeschwader units flying Bf 110s in the Battle of Britain can be termed 'pure' fighter units, because they did not carry out ANY OTHER FUNCTIONS (LIKE FIGHTER-BOMBER OR RECCE). Got that? They were PURE FIGHTERS! JGs (Bf 109s) and ZGs (Bf 110s) were two separate and distinct types of 'pure' fighter units. Got it? Jeez...

As for this: '...In regards to supposedly no Bf 109 at Erpr.Gr.210 Koeln-Ostheim see: ULTRA report
Erprobungsgruppe 210
In regards to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) and their Bf 109's see quote:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4B 3./Erpr.Gr.210(Battle of Britain)...'
I knew all of that in the 1980s from my research into that unit. The first link from having access to certain documents granted to me by the Ministry of Defence (Air Historical Branch), and the second link I knew all of that and more about 3./Erpr. Gr. 210. By the way, in that second link there is quite a bit of incorrect information - I can provide you with details of all the errors if you wish.

'...They were termed all along ZG Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer squadrons) and not JG Jagdgeschwader (fighter squadrons) and as such used primarily for ground attack missions and not as long range escort for Bombers into Poland, France, Holland etc.
And as I had also stated before, does not exclude engaging with fighters. However Goering's order that the ZG units are to participate in the role of escort fighters, was what decimated almost a 100% of their aircraft's and pilots. Did these Luftwaffe veteran pilots never tell you that?...'
Do you think I know nothing about the Bf 110 and its operations? Jeez, I've been researching it for over 40 years! Did the ZG pilots not tell me about losses? Tell me you are joking? They were giving me details of seeing their friends being shot down over England, and also of how they were shot down over England as well. Here's a few names that I interviewed: Hans Jäger, Hans-Ulrich Kettling (both I./ZG 76); Joachim Koepsell (3./ZG 26); Gerhard Granz (ZG 2); Richard Marchfelder (III./ZG 76) - Richard designed the 'three wasps above clouds' emblem that you father knew; Georg Jakstadt (ZG 26); Rudiger Proske (ZG 26); Hans-Joachim Jabs (II./ZG 76) - you may know this name. That's enough to be going on with. Here's the cover of a couple more books that I wrote that cover the day fighters from the start of the war to the end. I'm thinking you do not realise who you are trying to educate about the Bf 110. To put it bluntly to you: I know more about the type than you have ever known and ever will know!




For good measure, here's a couple more covers of books that I have researched and written:




But hey, what do I know according to you!?

Jagdflieger said:

As I had already written I am referring to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) my father, as I had posted also earlier on never flew In Russia or Africa/Med when SKG 210 was
formed he had already long before translated to in around July 1940 to ZG 76 also flying at times the Bf 109 both aircraft types marked with the famous wasp emblem during the BoB. Loads of these aircraft's in his Photo-albums during the BoB.

In regards to supposedly no Bf 109 at Erpr.Gr.210 Koeln-Ostheim see: ULTRA report
Erprobungsgruppe 210

In regards to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) and their Bf 109's see quote:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4B 3./Erpr.Gr.210(Battle of Britain)

If you met all these people then how come that you are not even aware that there were no JG or "pure fighter units" equipped with Bf 110 during the BoB ???
They were termed all along ZG Zerstoerer Geschwader (destroyer squadrons) and not JG Jagdgeschwader (fighter squadrons) and as such used primarily for ground attack missions
and not as long range escort for Bombers into Poland, France, Holland etc.
And as I had also stated before, does not exclude engaging with fighters. However Goering's order that the ZG units are to participate in the role of escort fighters, was what decimated
almost a 100% of their aircraft's and pilots. Did these Luftwaffe veteran pilots never tell you that?

You never claimed that the Bf 110 was great - okay then why do you bring in unfounded stats that show a Bf 110 on par with others? into my posts were I clearly mentioned
that the Bf 110 was a total fail-investment? You even stated several times that the stories about the Bf 110 are wrong, criticizing all kind of authors who had written books about the subject and therefore tried to make a point out of it that the Bf 110 was not worse then a BF 109 - really, that kind of statement after you met all these vets???

As for SKG 210 - they had Bf 109 - you can even find original B/W photos of these aircraft's in the internet = brought in from ZG 1.
Or was it that ZG 1 brought in SKG 210? you are really starting to get me confused.

1. '...From what I know only the Stab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 had a handful of Bf 109's, as such also testing the Bf 109 to be an alternative to the Bf 110 for strike missions. Erprobungsgruppe 210 was outfitted with Bf 110's and it's main task was to develop tactics that would enable a Bf 110 to survive missions...'
Your answer: The only part of Erprobungsgruppe 210 that flew the Bf 109 was the 3. Staffel.

I was referring to Erpr.Gr.210 based at Koeln-Ostheim and you? France right? - then at least we got that straightened out.

Like I said, I know very well what my father flew, when and where and you will understand that I certainly do not own you or anyone else his name or respectively mine.

Regards
Jagdflieger

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'...As for SKG 210 - they had Bf 109 - you can even find original B/W photos of these aircraft's in the internet = brought in from ZG 1.
Or was it that ZG 1 brought in SKG 210? you are really starting to get me confused...'
No, YOU are getting yourself confused. There were NO Bf 109s in SKG 210. Post up a photo of a Bf 109 with SKG 210 for me.
At the risk of repeating myself, here's what actually happened with regard to SKG 210 & ZG 1 in the winter of 1941/1942: On 4th January 1942, ZG 1 came into existence again. I./SKG 210 became I./ZG 1; II./SKG 210 became II./ZG 1, and a new III./ZG 1 was constituted from pilots from reconnaissance units and those fresh out of training, equipped with the Bf 109 E-7 fighter-bombers. The photos of Bf 109s with the large 'Wespe' on the nose are III./ZG 1 machines from 1942. Here's a shot of one of them:


And finally: '...Like I said, I know very well what my father flew, when and where and you will understand that I certainly do not own you or anyone else his name or respectively mine...' Why so secretive about his name? You've got it wrong already saying he flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210. Now you say it was with the wasp emblems (III./ZG 76). Fine. If you are so sensitive about his name, PM me, and I may be able to give you some information about him and his career. In the meantime, here's a couple of nice photos of III./ZG 76 in 1940 for you:

Jagdflieger said:

In regards to Erpr.Gr.210 (Erprobungsgruppe 210) and their Bf 109's see quote:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4B 3./Erpr.Gr.210(Battle of Britain)

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I mentioned in an earlier post that the content of this link was incorrect on several points. I think I should therefore point out the errors, as follows:

'...The others two squadrons operated with Bf 110C-4B, D-0, D-1 and other new and last versions of the Zerstörer...'
Erprobungsgruppe 210 did not operate Bf 110 C-4s. Only four were ever built with that designation, and they were later brought on charge as 'C-7's.
Erprobungsgruppe 210 did not operate the D-1. They operated the D-0/B and D-3

'...On Aug 15, 1940 Erpr.Gr.210 suffer heavy losses. After two succesfull sorties, the Gruppe depart by the 17.00 hrs to attack Kenley...'
On 15th August 1940, in the early evening, they took off at around 18:20 hours to attack Kenley, not 17:00 hours.

'...The attack cause moderate damage to Kenley...'
No, the unit missed Kenley completely and attacked Croydon airfield by mistake.

'...The full Stab flight was destroyed...'
No it wasn't. Leutnant Willi Benedens, flying in the Stab (Staff) Flight as 'zbv' (zur besonderen Verwendung), basically as a supernumary, managed to get his damaged Bf 110 back to Calais-Marck. He was hospitalised as a result of his wounds, and never returned to the unit.

'...the eight Bf 109E-4B led by Ltn.Horst Marx...'
Lt. Horst Marx did not lead the 3. Staffel, equipped with Bf 109 E-4/B fighter-bombers. 3. Staffel on this raid was led by the Staffelkapitän, Oberleutnant Otto Hintze.

'...2./Erpr.Gr.210 loss three others Bf 110s....'
No, 2./Erpr. Gr. 210 lost two, not three, Bf 110s.
The losses were:
Gruppenstab - 3
1. Staffel - 1
2. Staffel - 2
3. Staffel - 1
Total 7.

'...Marx´s Bf 109 was one of the only two Bf 109s lost in combat by Erpr.Gr.210 by the Battle of Britain...'
Wrong. 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 lost 3 Bf 109 Es in the Battle of Britain, as follows:
Lt. Marx, shot down over England, PoW - 15th August 1940;
Fw. Rückert, shot down over the Channel, rescued by Seenotdienst - 7th September 1940;
Oblt. Hintze, shot down over England, PoW - 29th October 1940.

Jagdflieger said:

Like I said, I know very well what my father flew, when and where and you will understand that I certainly do not own you or anyone else his name or respectively mine.

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That is of course your right on the internet and this forum, however please stop using your recollections of his recollections as a source of discussion winning argument.

I think the entire idea of "winning" a discussion is strange. If it's a debate, I get it, but if it's a discussion it's just an exchange of ideas. Yes, some ideas are right, and some are wrong, but some fall into a vast grey area of views, perspectives, and opinions.

First, nice pics, John Vasco! Love 'em.

I have no dog in this hunt, but it is a funny thing about "discussions." You can take one event and let three "experts" witness it, and you will get three distinctly different accounts of what they saw. I have spoken with WWII pilots who have memories of a particular aircraft, and their memory is correct. But, if that aircraft was the only fighter they ever flew in combat, then their memories are somewhat suspect, at least as far as the capabilities of other aircraft go, since they have no frame of reference from which to draw an opinion. Let's say they out-turned another type at some point. How do THEY know the other pilot was pulling it as hard as he could? Answer: they don't know; they only know they outturned that one on that occasion.

That's what make pilots like Eric Brown so valuable; he flew several different aircraft enough to get familiar with them. Flying some fighter for a familiarization flight in NOT enough flight time to assess how it would do against a familiar mount in uncertain circumstances.

Some Allied guy who flew P-38s and then P-47s or P-51s, or maybe both, is better-equipped to comment than someone who flew only P-51s. Same for the German or any other side. Erich Hartmann said on several occasions that he didn't have enough time in Fw 190s to make himself comfortable in one during combat, and he elected to stay with the familiar mount, the Bf 109, for combat.

My personal bet is the Bf 110 was a pretty good twin that had pretty decent flying characteristics. But I have no way to compare it to another single-engine fighter because I have never flown a single-engine WWII fighter solo in simulated combat. I have to go by WWII-era synopses of the Bf 110's suitability for combat. That leaves me with the impression that it was pretty good, but not necessarily in the presence of superior single-engine fighters from the other side. That impression may or may not be exactly accurate, but it's pretty accurate from the 25+ descriptions I've read of typical Bf 110 combat against Allied SE fighters.

On the other hand, I'm sure I could find an account where the Bf 110 won. But I likely can't find as many accounts of the Bf 110 winning as for other airplanes winning over a Bf 110. So, it's tough to know for sure. All we can do is surmise what we can from the accounts that are existing. I'm tending to lean the way John Vasco says it is, but we all know that if weight is removed, some airplanes "wake up" and their flying characteristics sparkle when they are light. How would a Bf 110 with only a pilot do when loaded with, say, 3/4 fuel and only ammunition for the forward-firing guns? I can't say, myself, but I'd bet it might surprise a few people who would expect it to be sluggish with full fuel, full crew, heavy weight, and maybe radar.

drgondog said:

Tell me in a paragraph why the Bf 110 was a better airfighter than the Brewster Bufalo or Hurricane or F4F

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I would argue that at the declaration of war in 1939 it was a better fighter in many respects than the Hurricane. But the Hurricane at that time had dope wings, 85 octane fuel and a twin blade wooden prop. Like the Hurricane, by the time things had moved on in 1941 - 42 it just wasnt "at the races" but there was nothing else, the 210 was a step backwards and the 410 was too late.

GregP said:

First, nice pics, John Vasco! Love 'em.

I have no dog in this hunt, but it is a funny thing about "discussions." You can take one event and let three "experts" witness it, and you will get three distinctly different accounts of what they saw. I have spoken with WWII pilots who have memories of a particular aircraft, and their memory is correct. But, if that aircraft was the only fighter they ever flew in combat, then their memories are somewhat suspect, at least as far as the capabilities of other aircraft go, since they have no frame of reference from which to draw an opinion. Let's say they out-turned another type at some point. How do THEY know the other pilot was pulling it as hard as he could? Answer: they don't know; they only know they outturned that one on that occasion.

That's what make pilots like Eric Brown so valuable; he flew several different aircraft enough to get familiar with them. Flying some fighter for a familiarization flight in NOT enough flight time to assess how it would do against a familiar mount in uncertain circumstances.

Some Allied guy who flew P-38s and then P-47s or P-51s, or maybe both, is better-equipped to comment than someone who flew only P-51s. Same for the German or any other side. Erich Hartmann said on several occasions that he didn't have enough time in Fw 190s to make himself comfortable in one during combat, and he elected to stay with the familiar mount, the Bf 109, for combat.

My personal bet is the Bf 110 was a pretty good twin that had pretty decent flying characteristics. But I have no way to compare it to another single-engine fighter because I have never flown a single-engine WWII fighter solo in simulated combat. I have to go by WWII-era synopses of the Bf 110's suitability for combat. That leaves me with the impression that it was pretty good, but not necessarily in the presence of superior single-engine fighters from the other side. That impression may or may not be exactly accurate, but it's pretty accurate from the 25+ descriptions I've read of typical Bf 110 combat against Allied SE fighters.

On the other hand, I'm sure I could find an account where the Bf 110 won. But I likely can't find as many accounts of the Bf 110 winning as for other airplanes winning over a Bf 110. So, it's tough to know for sure. All we can do is surmise what we can from the accounts that are existing. I'm tending to lean the way John Vasco says it is, but we all know that if weight is removed, some airplanes "wake up" and their flying characteristics sparkle when they are light. How would a Bf 110 with only a pilot do when loaded with, say, 3/4 fuel and only ammunition for the forward-firing guns? I can't say, myself, but I'd bet it might surprise a few people who would expect it to be sluggish with full fuel, full crew, heavy weight, and maybe radar.

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Great post, Greg!

A couple of things:
1. Being tied to 'close escort' of the Luftwaffe bombers was a misuse of the aircraft, when one considers that Luftwaffe bombers flew at about 200 mph max, less if into a headwind. At a stroke that reduced the effectiveness of the Bf 110, as it did the Bf 109 when detailed to the same duties.

2. Advantage - a word mentioned to me time after time by pilots of both sides that I met and questioned. Didn't matter how good the aircraft was, or the pilot was, if the other pilot had a few seconds advantage, you were in deep trouble! Hence Werner Mölders being shot down during the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940 by a French pilot; Mölders returning to combat at the back end of July and getting his damaged Bf 109 back to France with him wounded; Galland getting his damaged 109 back to France on one occasion, and Helmut Wick getting shot down into the Channel forever on 28th November 1940. A common denominator to all was 'advantage', or the losing of it for a vital few seconds. A Bf 110 flying full tilt with height onto an opponent was as good an aircraft as any of the other 3 fighters in that kind of situation. But their deployment too often militated against that scenario...

John Vasco said:

Great post, Greg!

A couple of things:
1. Being tied to 'close escort' of the Luftwaffe bombers was a misuse of the aircraft, when one considers that Luftwaffe bombers flew at about 200 mph max, less if into a headwind. At a stroke that reduced the effectiveness of the Bf 110, as it did the Bf 109 when detailed to the same duties.

2. Advantage - a word mentioned to me time after time by pilots of both sides that I met and questioned. Didn't matter how good the aircraft was, or the pilot was, if the other pilot had a few seconds advantage, you were in deep trouble! Hence Werner Mölders being shot down during the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940 by a French pilot; Mölders returning to combat at the back end of July and getting his damaged Bf 109 back to France with him wounded; Galland gettinh damaged 109 back to France on one occasion, and Helmut Wick getting shot down into the Channel forever on 28th November 1940. A common denominator to all was 'advantage', or the losing of it for a vital few seconds. A Bf 110 flying full tilt with height onto an opponent was as good an aircraft as any of the other 3 fighters in that kind of situation. But their deployment too often militated against that scenario...

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And also in reply to a previous post about the reputation of the Bf110. Some confuse "Battle of Britain day" with the whole conflict. On that day, being ordered to fly close to the bombers into a head wind meant that their main function could only be as a sacrifice to be shot down instead of the bombers. As far as ground speed goes the raid took place in slow motion.

GregP said:

First, nice pics, John Vasco! Love 'em.

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Just for you, Greg, another Bf 110 photo.

John Vasco said:

Just for you, Greg, another Bf 110 photo.
View attachment 663389

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My God, John, have you no decency?!

pbehn said:

I would argue that at the declaration of war in 1939 it was a better fighter in many respects than the Hurricane. But the Hurricane at that time had dope wings, 85 octane fuel and a twin blade wooden prop.

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Just a wee smallish slight correction, pbehn, the first Hurricanes had received the De Havilland two position three bladed VP prop by the time war broke out, the first in February 1939, and the fabric covered wing was giving way to an all-metal wing by that time, I'm not sure of the exact timeline of when that was introduced, but the fabric wing was removed from production sometime in 1939. That year Hurri Is were also fitted with the Merlin III. In October 1939 the De Havilland prop was standardised on all production Hurricanes until the arrival of the definitive Rotol CS prop in 1940, which was a field mod that took very little time to fit, so these entered service within a short space of time.

I do get your point too, but the Bf 110 surely did not have the acceleration of these single-seaters. It certainly had the firepower, but I wouldn't be equipping my air force with it in place of Hurricanes or F4Fs, at the very least.