Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
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Hi John VascoFirst of all, take a look at the the information below. You may be surprised to see that the Bf 110 performed as well as the other three main fighters. Yet no one ever mentions that the Bf 109 got absolutely BATTERED in the Battle of Britain...View attachment 662508
Too many people still think that the Battle of Britain was this scenario of fighters swirling around in the skies of southern England carrying out 'knightly jousts'. That is totally incorrect. Most fighter victories involved one pilot sneaking up on another and shooting them out of the sky, and then heading off before they get clobbered. One notable exception to this was Gerhard Schöpfel of JG 26 on 18th August when he came upon 501 Squadron unseen from behind and knocked down four of them in quick succession. But the principle was still the same. Go examine the victories of the likes of Galland and Mölders, and you will see the same thing: Advantage - get in - clobber - get out.
'...This flaw was exposed during the Battle of Britain, when some Bf 110-equipped units were withdrawn from the battle after very heavy losses and redeployed as night fighters, a role to which the aircraft was well suited.' Which Bf 110 units were withdrawn from the Battle? Bf 110 units were gradually withdrawn from the Channel Front in October due to the Luftwaffe's change of direction to night bombing, when daylight escort was obviously no longer needed. The last major daylight escort was by Zerstörergeschwader 26 on 7th October 1940.
And not all of those withdrawn were deployed as nightfighters immediately. Go check out the historical path of ZG 26 and ZG 76, for example.
As you probably know, the first nightfighter force was set up in June 1940 under Wolfgang Falck following dusk incursions by RAF bombers in early 1940, and as these incursions increased, so the nightfighter force was increased (cf. John J. Vasco & Peter D. Cornwell, 'Zerstörer, The Messerschmitt 110 and its units in 1940).
As for this: '...And this is confirmed by hundreds of books and articles by all kind of authors and researchers - incl. my father and some of his surviving Luftwaffe Flieger mates.
Two of them later serving in Bf 110 night-fighter units....' Perhaps you could mention some (not the hundreds, obviously) of these books and articles that that you say confirm your assertion. But please, not the myths and falsehoods that were published from the 1960s onwards (and that still perpetuate in the mind of many even to this day). And perhaps the names of the authors and researchers. Let me guess: these books/articles said the Bf 110 in the Battle of Britain needed Bf 109 escort -hilarious! Did not happen, apart from the Bf 110 fighter-bombers of Erprobungsgruppe 210, who were classed as bombers, and therefore were given escort to the target in order to unload their payload safely. And on a lot of occasions, their escort came from the Bf 110 unit, Zerstörergewschwader 26!
Well, quick reply as I'll be away from my PC for the next few minutes.Hi John Vasco
Thanks for the info, but I have my own interpretation towards such stats.
The Bf 110 was a total fail investment and an outdated idea by 1940 and the Luftwaffe suffered for it - I for my part got enough sound information from my father and
other pilots who flew this aircraft. That doesn't imply that I would know everything - and there is always new information's to gather and inspect. That is the exiting part in
this hobby, isn't it?
Regards
Jagdflieger
Besides dog-fighting against fighters for which it wasn't built -sure
would you out-rule that an
A-20 couldn't perform a recon mission? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a bombing attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a strafing raid on an airfield? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a ship/naval attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a supply drop, transport? even far better?
A-20 couldn't perform an medi/evac? even far better?
A-20 couldn't sneak up and shot down e.g. any of the following aircraft's?
A5M, D3A (Val),Ki-32 (Mary) etc.
But tell me please, since I wouldn't know, did the P-38 have any impact or was it a necessity once the Hellcat/Corsair/P-51 and P-47 arrived in the PTO? or the latter 2
plus Spitfires, Tempest, Typhoon and Mossies around in the ETO?
The A-20's and it's variants were still a necessity in both theaters.
The Hellcat had a kill ratio of 19 to 1, what was the P-38 kill ratio? in the PTO? and even the Wildcat was used to result in 15 or more USN air-aces.
No doubt the P-38 was of great assistance and value in the PTO between 1941 - 1943, but then.....as I mentioned before, if one got enough $$ and industrial capacity
one can field as many aircraft's as one likes, needed or not.
As for the ETO and more information on the P-38 please see: I think it's very informative
Regards
Jagdflieger
Hi John Vasco,Well, quick reply as I'll be away from my PC for the next few minutes.
Anyone can interpret anything the way they like - the problem is that they often stray from FACTS.
I'll just throw in a few names of pilots that I interviewed and drew my information from. You may know the names, or wish to look them up: Wolfgang Schenck (he flew the 110 from the start of the war into the Russian campaign, before going on to fly the Fw190 fighter-bomber, the Me262 fighter-bomber [40 missions] and ended the war as the last Inspector of Jet Fighters of the Third Reich); Wolfgang Falck, and Hans-Joachim Jabs. Between them, they knew quite a bit about the 110.
By the way, Falck wrote the introduction to the book I mentioned earlier.
I'll post more later. In the meantime, I would welcome you posting the names of those books, and researchers/authors that you say you use as reference. And also those pilots you mentioned. I'm always avid for further knowledge on the Bf 110.
I never claimed that I was smartHey Jagdflieger, now you know why I rarely, if ever, say one plane is better than another here.
Welcome to my world.I never claimed that I was smart
Regards
Jagdflieger
Erich is a long-standing member of this forum and he's active on Facebook.I had for some years a very good and fruitfull exchange on Luftwaffe matters with a very knowledgeable person by the forum name of Erich, but lost track of him some years ago - do you happen to know him? I think he mentioned Oregon
as his home state.
Last I heard from him was I think about 3-4 years ago when he sadly mentioned cancer. He was also involved in writting or publishing books on Luftwaffe matters
Hi Graugeist, thanks a lotErich is a long-standing member of this forum and he's active on Facebook.
He just grumbled about the weather in a post over there
Interesting - first time I am being made aware of that issue.....British public opinion quickly shifted from massive admiration for the RAF in the Battle of Britain to "what are you doing about it" during the night time Blitz.....
It's a matter of perspective or (view of angle)?Now, you think the A-20 could replace it? That's crazy-talk. The A-20 was one hell of an airplane which could, as you point out, perform a variety of missions with aplomb, but there's no way it could replace the P-38 in the latter's role of a fighter/fighter-bomber.
It was very interesting to meet them at the time and get their stories. I just did it, as part of the research I was doing, spending hundreds of £s every year getting across to Germany and meeting them. Some of their stories were funny; one or two harrowing.Hi John Vasco,
wow - must have been very interesting to talk with these persons. I envy you for that,
The persons my father introduced me to and who flew the Bf 110 where Walter Witt, Hans Ihle, (SKG 200/JG2) Edwin Eberhardinger (SKG 200/JG2) and Bruno Stolle - all reunited later
in the new Luftwaffe Fuerstenfeld Bruck and Lager Lechfeld Jabo G 32. Walter Witt often referred to Georg Greiner who I however never met.
A very close buddy to Edwin was Priller (who he never referred to as "Pips" but Sepp, who off course I "unfortunatly" never got to meet. My father was very close to Steinhoff and
Bruno Stolle also knew Barkhorn, Rall and Galland (the latter only briefly in France and somewhere around the last weeks of the war).
The main reason why my father new most of the top brass in the new Luftwaffe was due to being a very close friend to the former defense minister Franz Josef Strauss. and whilst being stationed at Koeln/Wahn he got to fly him on weekends to Bavaria - he was also the one who taught him how to fly in order to get his PPL.
As for books - oh my god, dozens and most likely the same ones that you have also read. By the way in another forum I had for some years a very good and fruitfull exchange on Luftwaffe matters with a very knowledgeable person by the forum name of Erich, but lost track of him some years ago - do you happen to know him? I think he mentioned Oregon
as his home state.
Last I heard from him was I think about 3-4 years ago when he sadly mentioned cancer. He was also involved in writting or publishing books on Luftwaffe matters.
When I mentioned about 10 years ago in that forum that all this dogfight stories during the BoB, according to my father are a load of bull - I didn't have an easy time there, especially
not after I forwarded that many kill claims are bogus or where "attributed" via an internally known procedure. After a year of opposing discussions even with Erich, he then helped out with his "new" research results backing my previous forwarding, quite a pleasent turn in events.
Regards
Jagdflieger
It's a matter of perspective or (view of angle)?
You might well be viewing this from the US side - everything in abundance never mind the $$ so lets build aircraft's that we might not even need.
My view is from the German side - nothing in abundance - no big $$ - so lets take what we have
As such the P-40, P-39 and Wildcats take care of the fighter so that the A-20 gets its mission accomplished - which it could do just as well, maybe even better then a P-38
Maybe my mistake to view or judge it from that angle - next time I will be more considered.
Regards
Jagdflieger
During the Blitz of 1940-41 two million homes were damaged or destroyed, 40,000 killed and over 100,000 injured, you think no one asked "what are you doing about it"? In fact things were in process to find a solution but it wasnt quick or easy, airborne RADAR, better planes and ground controlled intercept RADAR to work behind the Chain Home system meant that the RAF started to inflict losses by May 1941.Interesting - first time I am being made aware of that issue
Regards
Jagdflieger
I think you better look into the design spec on these aircraft - why the AAF ordered them and what their mission was - it wasn't a matter of just throwing money at aircraft manufacturers to build aircraft. This isn't "viewing this from the US side," this is fact! Each one of these aircraft were planned to fulfill a mission and when prototypes were flown they showed the required performance to fulfill the planned mission - if it was a matter of throwing money around to build aircraft you would of had the following fighters built....It's a matter of perspective or (view of angle)?
You might well be viewing this from the US side - everything in abundance never mind the $$ so lets build aircraft's that we might not even need.
My view is from the German side - nothing in abundance - no big $$ - so lets take what we have
As such the P-40, P-39 and Wildcats take care of the fighter so that the A-20 gets its mission accomplished - which it could do just as well, maybe even better then a P-38
Maybe my mistake to view or judge it from that angle - next time I will be more considered.
Regards
Jagdflieger
Why do you cling to the A-20 comparison? Its purpose and primary mission was that of low to medium level battlefield attack and interdiction.It's a matter of perspective or (view of angle)?
You might well be viewing this from the US side - everything in abundance never mind the $$ so lets build aircraft's that we might not even need.
My view is from the German side - nothing in abundance - no big $$ - so lets take what we have
As such the P-40, P-39 and Wildcats take care of the fighter so that the A-20 gets its mission accomplished - which it could do just as well, maybe even better then a P-38
Maybe my mistake to view or judge it from that angle - next time I will be more considered.
Regards
Jagdflieger
Well, in my opinion the A-20 could do many of those roles, or all of them.would you out-rule that an
A-20 couldn't perform a recon mission? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a bombing attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a strafing raid on an airfield? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a ship/naval attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a supply drop, transport? even far better?
A-20 couldn't perform an medi/evac? even far better?
A-20 couldn't sneak up and shot down e.g. any of the following aircraft's?
A5M, D3A (Val),Ki-32 (Mary) etc.
OK, you do realize that the Americans only built 5/6 different fighters in large numbers for the AAF? and that was from the summer of 1940 til the summer of 1945.It's a matter of perspective or (view of angle)?
You might well be viewing this from the US side - everything in abundance never mind the $$ so lets build aircraft's that we might not even need.
My view is from the German side - nothing in abundance - no big $$ - so lets take what we have
As such the P-40, P-39 and Wildcats take care of the fighter so that the A-20 gets its mission accomplished - which it could do just as well, maybe even better then a P-38
Maybe my mistake to view or judge it from that angle - next time I will be more considered.
Regards
Jagdflieger
He seems to be doing well - he just posted this the other day, so you see his sense of humor is as good as always!Hi Graugeist, thanks a lot
I just checked Erich on this forum after your info - last post December - so everything okay with him? Still busy with his new found love "Stugs"?
Regards
Jagdflieger