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Not much I can add to this discussion. but I cant help thinking and comparing the devastating uses that the B-52 was put to when used in the tactical support role. Werent b-52s used in the early parts of the invasion of Afghanistan? Pretty sure they were, and further, am pretty sure they were absolutely devastating when used to take out taliban positions.
Previously i have alluded to how greatly we respected maritime Bears in the late 70s/early 80s. They had great capability primarily because of their range. However that capability was never proven. Nor can i recall ever hearing of Bears being used to support Soviet moves in the 80's whilst invading Afghanistan. If true, why not? by the same token I am unaware of any great usage of B-52s in the matitime strike role. Neither am i aware of great usage of B-52s in the recon role. Perhapos they were so used, but I am just unaware of that role for them
But, the main detection in 50ies were radars, not ears...1. Its LOUD - you can actually hear it from miles away
Ok, B-52 was not thin, not stealth too.2. Huge radar signature
Some current fleet maybe had fatigue airframes problems...But what do you know about Tu-95 structural airframes integrity, resistance, calculations, wöhler curves, vibration trials?3. I question the structural integrity of the airframe at continued low level operations at high speeds. I do know that some of the current fleet had to undergo mods for airframe fatigue flying at their current mission profile, so I could only imagine how much worse it would be if the aircraft was deployed at low level.
Sure, the plane is smaller and lighter, but again what is the relatrionship with LL or HiLoHI mission profiles?4. Limited payload
And Turbo-jets, are? Have you got specific consumption tables for both planes. Thrust vs Altitude charts?5. Fuel consumption - Turbo Props are not efficent at high speeds at low level
It was - but its pretty bad when you can hear your enemy coming from 40 miles away. The TU-95 is so loud that acoustic operators on ships and on P-3s miles away can hear it. Intercepting fighters (F-4s, F-106s) were able to hear it as they pulled along side of it. Consider that on low level mission and the opponent wont even need radar to know the aircraft is incoming!But, the main detection in 50ies were radars, not ears...
Both aircraft have the RCS of a barn door but the B-52 will have a lower RCS than the TU-95 just based on configuration. There have been mods done to the B-52 to lower the RCS be adding some composite components to parts of the aircraft's structure.Ok, B-52 was not thin, not stealth too.
I don't specifically - what I do know is the aircraft was and continues to be modified and repaired because of fatigue problems, mainly due to its engines, something common on most large turbo props. It's commercial cousin the TU-114 was taken out of service in the mid 70s because of airframe fatigue. This has been well documented.Some current fleet maybe had fatigue airframes problems...But what do you know about Tu-95 structural airframes integrity, resistance, calculations, wöhler curves, vibration trials?
Depends what the mission is and what weapons you're going to carry.Sure, the plane is smaller and lighter, but again what is the relatrionship with LL or HiLoHI mission profiles?
I don't - but probably could come up with one on the B-52, but in the end all one would have to do is look at both aircraft best economical cruise and if you believe numbers extracted from internet sources, the both aircraft are impressive but I think you're going to find the B-52 still comes out ahead with an unrefuled range of over 10,000 miles.And Turbo-jets, are? Have you got specific consumption tables for both planes. Thrust vs Altitude charts?
Regards
If you've noticed stealth aircraft have the inlets of the jets hidden behind grills, that's because the blades on the inlet turbine are very good radar reflectors. Now if the blades of a jet turbine are good radar reflectors, can you imagine how good a radar reflector the propeller blades on a turboprop would be ?
So a TU-95 would probably show up as 4!B52 actually showed up as 2 targets on radar because of the size
Actually I like the Bear - as a kid I thought it was a really neat looking aircraft and it has been "force fed" into many roles that the west would have just developed another airframe to accomplish (B-52 - P-3). The Soviets took an airframe and stretched the life and function out of it as much as they can and this achievement is nothing short of remarkable, but when comparing the Bear to the B-52 in its original role, I think its quite evident the B-52 is the better strategic bomber.Not much of a fan of the russian bird I take it joe.....
They are if you're bombing tactical targets or trying your best to avoid radarSo noise, radar RCS are not plusses, no ostacles too for low alt missions.
OK but how does this show that either plane was the better bomber?Tu-95 history is well documented too, crews were currently practicing Low flights with general HiLoHi mission profiles. No fatigue problems occured as well as manufacturer TBO was not overpassed or prolongated (as it was finally done for ecomomical problems).
Moreover during MAKSes Bears are often demonstrating some (poor of course, they arne not Su-26, CAP-231 anyway...) aerobatics, that shows there are some noticeable structure strenght margins at least.
No - the aircraft was modifed and was capable of fulfilling its role as it still does. The TU series actually had to be removed from service in some cases because of fatigue, well documented as well. The Indian Navy is currently modifying their fleet as we speak.So if B-52 encontered itself some resistance, fatigue problems it should'nt be automatically transmitted to the others planes of its category.
I don't understand your point but ok...This is rather unsurprising growing from 80 000 (empty) to 220 000kg (TO) it look likes the frog of the fable that wants to swell at a beef's size...
And it is also viabrating more and running in denser air still limiting its performanceAbout low alts, the output of Tupolev blades is increasing, due to that Mach speed is higher (in km/h) than at high alts (1240 km/h vs 990).
Again I don't understand your point but ok...Now, personnaly i'v got much more respect for Tupolev airframe or Myassetchev (it's forbidden in the story, i don't know why...) than for Boeing's. I would have tendency to congratulate more Westinghouse engeeners and PW ones more than Boeing's ones.
It should be remembered that at time the TU-95 was projected (early 50ies), there were no soviet turbojet with low specific conso. to be fitted on an intercontinental bomber. First Myassetchevs failed to fulfill the state 12 000km range request (only 9 300) despite a 5 points higher L/D than Tu-95, but the Tu-95 succeed with more than 12 400 on trials. Due to the much higher output of Turboprops vs Turbojets at about 750-800km/h speeds (it was providing > 30% fuel economy and even 50% at low speeds).
And its also performing maritine patrol, a totally different mission with no payload except crew and surveillance equipmentFinally, late marine Tu-95 had 17 800, or even 22 400 km range with improved Kuznetsovs. But is little off-top.
OK...So the success of the B-52's project due to america's technology and economical level was not really a surprise.
The TU-95 was a great aircraft, the B-52 was the better strategic bomber...Now, for the USSR that had the real GNP lower than West Germany+Benelux countries one, it was a remarquable result.
SU won the battle?!?!The SU doesn't exist anymore! You're now making political excuses for coming in second place! BTW that radar system is still operating today, finally slowly being replaced and had well paid for it self 10x over. Please stay on subject because your last comment was ridiculous and is evident of post cold war rhetoric.In conclusion it was a respunse from the weak to the strong. America's power was challenged, and answered twice. (Both by Myassetchev and Tupolev.) Don't forget that Tu-95 (called Tu-20 in west newspapers) coasted billions of dollars to american's and canadian's happy tax payers, to modernise the radars chain.
At ecomomical war, SU won also this battle.
And its also performing maritine patrol, a totally different mission with no payload except crew and surveillance equipment
At ecomomical war, SU won also this battle.
It was not the subject of your sentence. It only shows that it (Tu-95) is able to perform low level missions.They are if you're bombing tactical targets or trying your best to avoid radar
OK but how does this show that either plane was the better bomber?
It does, but B-52 were modified (reinforced) after 2000 hours. Tu-114 flew more than 15 000 h before some weakness was observed on engine lifting panels.No - the aircraft was modifed and was capable of fulfilling its role as it still does. The TU series actually had to be removed from service in some cases because of fatigue, well documented as well. The Indian Navy is currently modifying their fleet as we speak.
Probably the Tu-95 structure could "Bear"I don't understand your point but ok...ha! ha! more G-loads. And try some evasive manoeuvres.
And why do you think that denser air does not limiting B-52's performance, as well?And it is also viabrating more and running in denser air still limiting its performance
Explain that to one of my best friends that is operating on ATR's, and worked on Dashes, Fokkers and even Antonovs why your vibrating theory is not working with his planes?
Is it max record range or operational range? My point is that 7500 miles O.R. are enough to reach each point in the USA from SU.And the B-52 is capable of flying over 10,000 miles unrefuled - your point?
Never said the opposite. Considering the mission, the "Molot" was able to reach america anyway, with no way back. It wasn't changing a lot with Tu-95 crews, thant considered undecend to go back after the nuclear launch after killing millions of people as just after a milk run.BTW the B-52 came about in the late 40s and had the jet engines to enable it to perform the role the Soviets wanted the The Bear and Myassetchevs to perform. If I remember correctly the latter was a dismal failure, many of them turned into tankers and its design bureu reassigned.
Most of them considered as "normal" to die with their victims. It was dirty missions at dirty time.
Whatever, the Myassetchev was improved and soon fulfilled the 12 000km request, 1) by refuelling, 2) by changing of engine mark.
Ok, but it should be noticed that initial Tu-95's bombload of 12 000 kg was later increased to 20 000 kg in order to take away the soviet 50 magatonnes bomb.And its also performing maritine patrol, a totally different mission with no payload except crew and surveillance equipment
Better on that level of destruction? Carrying 500 times the power of Hiroshima bomb or only 300, was not changing much the issue for the attacked country...The TU-95 was a great aircraft, the B-52 was the better strategic bomber...
SU wont that battle. But lost the war, no doubts.SU won the battle?!?!The SU doesn't exist anymore! You're now making political excuses for coming in second place! BTW that radar system is still operating today, finally slowly being replaced and had well paid for it self 10x over. Please stay on subject because your last comment was ridiculous and is evident of post cold war rhetoric.
I have just said, that soviets had initially no means to reach america with a strategic jet-bomber, but succeeded anyway in this mission using some (TsAGUI) technical tricks of the trade, brains and scientifical knowledge.
So my respect! Not at rhetoric but at technical point of view.They were not considered as secund (sometimes first) military power only by being mentally retarded.
Moreover as the petrol price would increase like it does, we all will use Tupôlev-Kuznetsov formulas soon...
Anyway, as a strategic bomber, i already said, the B-52 was heavier, bigger, more powerfull and could carry more loads.
Now, saying that it was tremendously better just for that, seems quite excessive.
Maybe in a capacity to defend itself but if Soviet crews operated anywhere close to the same roles as USN P-3s they were not always on station armed (and I believe the Soviets mimicked a lot of the USN ASW Patrol doctrine) - that's not to say that when they reached the end of their mission their replacement would come on station fully armed.I agree with just about everything in your last reply to Altea, but i was always led to believe that the bear undertook those super long range patrols armed and ready for combat. Perhaps not at 22000 km, but still very long legged. Thats probably the one advatage that the Bear can claim, at least in the Maritime role.....its range
... Perhaps not at 22000 km, but still very long legged....