Underappreciated Aircraft of WWII

JoeB said:

Based on kill ratio comparisons of the Hurricane to other Allied fighters against the same Axis opposition. For example F4F and Hurricane v same or similar Japanese oppostion, Hawk v Hurricane v the same German or Japanese opposition. So it has nothing to do specifically with how Axis air arms stacked up against Allied in respects other than a/c.

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I think this thread alone shows that there is indeed more to consider than just a/c.

1. French Hawks did at least as well v Bf109 in 1940 than Hurricane (measureably better but not to a highly statistically significant degree).

2. Hurricane results in PTO are not as far out of line with Hurricane results v the LW as some seem to initially assume. So the Hurricane results in PTO are not as strange and in need of extraordinary explanations as they would be if the Hurricane units really had been typically fully competitive with the German fighter units, which is again seems to the common reputation among some.

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It would seem that in both Sitzkrieg and BoF period the statistical edge rests with the H-75A though it also appears that the level of Hurricane engagement was greater which is a factor to consider. (I look forward to reading the source you used, been wanting one covering that period!) The Sitzkrieg period figures show the H-75 in better light until it is realized that the bulk of Hurricane/109 engagements were much more limited, occuring near the end of the period, further exaserbated by the tactical situations, two of which went badly for the RAF thus impacting the summary. For me, I find the results interesting more for what they might indicate about the state of French fighter pilot exp and training vs. the machines (which were similar). For the Burma example, I maintain that its just too limited to do more than a cursory comparison and B's recent analysis shows that within this limited scope the Mohawk drivers enjoyed better odds than their Hurricane compatriots.

On point 2, I do consider it out of line as i've found that any summary result over 3:1 to be an exception vs. a rule and one that indicates an imbalance of one or more factors.(usually more than one) Thus an explanation is indeed warented. It may not be as extreme as the 35:0 (or 30:0 as you calculated) experienced during a five month period over Malta, but it was still considered unusual enough that the RAF sent a troubleshooter to Burma to try to get to the bottom of it. Regading the F4F comparison, I guess we'll have to continue to disagree on the situation being similar for the Hurricane/F4F in the critical periods.

Don't think we've had this one yet...Vickers Wellington. Absolute workhorse that seldom gets a mention among the heavy bombers (and it was considered "heavy" when it was designed).

buffnut453 said:

Don't think we've had this one yet...Vickers Wellington. Absolute workhorse that seldom gets a mention among the heavy bombers (and it was considered "heavy" when it was designed).

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plus its work with electronics it might almost qualify as the 1st AEW and another option for aircraft might be the Halifax

Ditto on the Halifax pbfoot.

pbfoot said:

plus its work with electronics it might almost qualify as the 1st AEW and another option for aircraft might be the Halifax

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Good call re. the Halifax. I recently went to the Yorkshire Air Museum in the UK where the only existing Halifax(ish) is kept and it was great to see a semi-forgotten aircraft in the flesh. I just wish there was a Short Stirling somewhere too.

This is a bit of thread drift, but the Yorkshire Air Museum is superb - not too slick/sterile and has some superb aircraft and displays (including an extensive collection of gun turrets which I found fascinating). Another fact I picked up there was that there was a Handley Page designed aircraft in service with the RAF since it's formation until the last Jetstream was decommissioned. Handley Page does seem one of the most underappreciated aircraft manufacturers, I suppose because they never made glamorous fighters.

Also, excellent suggestion re. the Wellington. It was the RAF's first heavy bomber in WWII, and also did great work in Coastal Command. I'm intrigued by the reference to it possibly being the first AEW - any evidence to back that up? It was a Barnes Wallis design and I'm sure he would have been fascinated with the technology in modern AEW's - so if the Wellington was the first one then thats a nice chronology. More info. please.

kration said:

Also, excellent suggestion re. the Wellington. It was the RAF's first heavy bomber in WWII, and also did great work in Coastal Command.

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Aren't you forgetting the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley

If we talk on Wimpy we can then think also He 111, it also soldiered throughout the war.

Juha

kration said:

I'm intrigued by the reference to it possibly being the first AEW - any evidence to back that up? It was a Barnes Wallis design and I'm sure he would have been fascinated with the technology in modern AEW's - so if the Wellington was the first one then thats a nice chronology. More info. please.

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I found a bit on wiki its the only reference I can find at the moment. There is a website that gives descriptions of WWII radar that also mentions it but I cant find it at the moment, will keep looking

(from wikipedia) In late 1944, a radar-equipped Wellington was modified for use by the RAF's Fighter Interception Unit as what would now be described as an Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft[1]. It operated at an altitude of some 4,000 ft (1,219 m) over the North Sea to control de Havilland Mosquito fighters intercepting Heinkel He 111 bombers flying from Dutch airbases and carrying out airborne launches of the V-1 flying bomb.

kration said:

Good call re. the Halifax. I recently went to the Yorkshire Air Museum in the UK where the only existing Halifax(ish) is kept and it was great to see a semi-forgotten aircraft in the flesh. I just wish there was a Short Stirling somewhere too.

This is a bit of thread drift, but the Yorkshire Air Museum is superb - not too slick/sterile and has some superb aircraft and displays (including an extensive collection of gun turrets which I found fascinating). Another fact I picked up there was that there was a Handley Page designed aircraft in service with the RAF since it's formation until the last Jetstream was decommissioned. Handley Page does seem one of the most underappreciated aircraft manufacturers, I suppose because they never made glamorous fighters.

Also, excellent suggestion re. the Wellington. It was the RAF's first heavy bomber in WWII, and also did great work in Coastal Command. I'm intrigued by the reference to it possibly being the first AEW - any evidence to back that up? It was a Barnes Wallis design and I'm sure he would have been fascinated with the technology in modern AEW's - so if the Wellington was the first one then thats a nice chronology. More info. please.

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101 Sqn operated the Wellington as a electronic warfare bird , but I'm thinking of one flight in particular whereby an RCAF crewed Wellington set itself up as a target so as to determine what the LW was using for frequecies and such I'll did around my crap and find the article . The only fully restored Halifax resides in Canada at CFB Trenton

pbfoot said:

101 Sqn operated the Wellington as a electronic warfare bird , but I'm thinking of one flight in particular whereby an RCAF crewed Wellington set itself up as a target so as to determine what the LW was using for frequecies and such I'll did around my crap and find the article . The only fully restored Halifax resides in Canada at CFB Trenton

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My apologies re. the complete Canadian Halifax - I hadn't realised that there was another restored one. But it's good that there's a couple of examples of this warbird!

I'd say that the Arado Ar196 has been pretty much overlooked.

For an aircraft that was produced from 1938 through 1944 (and in service to war's end), you don't see or hear much about it.

Hello GrauGeist
yes, and Ar 196s directed fire of KM's heavy units during the desperate fighting in Baltic states, East-Prussian and Pommern in late 44-45.

Generally you don't see much material on float planes, even if especially of those of JNAF saw much service and did much important work. My favourities are Ar 196 and Mitsubishi F1M2 Pete, even if Aichi E13A1 Jake was probably the most important float plane because of its sterling work as long range naval recon a/c. But there are many others from Fairey Seafox to He 115

Juha

I know someone else brought this up earlier in this long thread with many tangents...

The Allison powered P-51 (Mustang Mk I/P-51/P-51A) were certainly "underappreciated" by the USAAC.
Imagine how events would have unfolded had the USAAC "greatly appreciated" these planes!

These planes, pre Merlin, had the potential to supplant the P-40 and perhaps even the P-38 for many applications.

How about the Italian Ro-37 "Romeo"? In 58 years I've only heard about it once I think it was an observation or recon aircraft

Juha said:

Hello GrauGeist
yes, and Ar 196s directed fire of KM's heavy units during the desperate fighting in Baltic states, East-Prussian and Pommern in late 44-45.

Generally you don't see much material on float planes, even if especially of those of JNAF saw much service and did much important work. My favourities are Ar 196 and Mitsubishi F1M2 Pete, even if Aichi E13A1 Jake was probably the most important float plane because of its sterling work as long range naval recon a/c. But there are many others from Fairey Seafox to He 115

Juha

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Agree with both, though i like He-115 Fiat RS.14 best

Too bad Brits didn't have this baby aboard of both CAM combat ships (cruisers better), as early as 1939 (though they trialed Spit as hidroplane). Perhaps six of these would've made Battle of Kuantan to never happen (stretch, I know ):