- Thread starter
- #61
USA/Japanese Pacific color pixs.
- Thread starter Tieleader
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I have checked Imperial GHQ's communication records exchanged between Tokyo and Manila.
Manila told "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, type Zero, model 22, L2, D3. "
This was sent by Morse code and read by Japanese like this "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, Zero model 22, Love2, Dog3."
Tokyo answered "We have no idea which airplane you are requesting for the party."
Manila answered "It is like DC-3 or Mitsubishi MC-20 but you may use other model. Advise us which one before departure."
Tokyo understood the green cross as green one in the message.
No problem on procedure.
Manila told "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, type Zero, model 22, L2, D3. "
This was sent by Morse code and read by Japanese like this "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, Zero model 22, Love2, Dog3."
Tokyo answered "We have no idea which airplane you are requesting for the party."
Manila answered "It is like DC-3 or Mitsubishi MC-20 but you may use other model. Advise us which one before departure."
Tokyo understood the green cross as green one in the message.
No problem on procedure.
Gastounet
Airman 1st Class
On the C54 behind the Betty, the blue circle around the white star looks black to me.
Can this happen when the pictures are more than 70 years old?
Can this happen when the pictures are more than 70 years old?
- Thread starter
- #64
Do you have transcripts as to the actual wording on the paint schemes?
Last edited:
Yes, here it is.
Message from Manila dated August 16.
Translated into Japanese and reported on August 17, 1945.
Source: JACAR https://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html
Reference code: C14061074800
Page: 18
"右飛行機全体ハ白色ニ塗ラレ飛行機ノ胴側(両側)並ニ各翼ノ上下部ニ五百「ヤード」ヨリ容易ニ認識セラル緑色（グリーン）ノ十字「クロースズ」(複数)ヲ附スルモノトス"
Retranslation into English
"The airplane mentioned in the right shall be painted in white overall and bear crosses in color of green which can be recognized easily from 500 yards on the fuselage(both sides) and the upper/under of each wing."
- Thread starter
- #66
Interesting. I dug around a little bit and came up with a few more things.
NH 81961 Surrender of Japan, 1945
also...
EXCHANGE OF MESSAGES BETWEEN GENERAL MACARTHUR AND JAPANESE GENERAL HEADQUARTERS ON MANILA MEETING
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450815b.html
"
Type and markings of airplanes.
(1) Planes from Manchuria and China are low-winged monoplane, twin engined, middle-size transport of Mitsubishi MC-22 type;
(2) Plane from the south is middle-winged monoplane, twin-engined, middle-sized bomber with cigar-shaped fuselage resembling that of B-26.
(3) Markings are sun-flag with red streamer of four meters length."
any idea what #3 refers to?
and one modeler's take on the planes. No idea how he arrived at the colors.
Mitsubishi G4M1 Betty Bomber "Bataan 2" - Model Aces
the final fate of the two birds.
R. Lee Ermeys MAIL CALL Forum • View topic - Surrender Flight [ Guest ]
World War II Ends in the Pacific
the second describes a fuel tank leak.
Be interested in what you think.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ok, I grabbed the photo from post #61 and ran it through my photograph editor.
The color balance, according to the histogram, was was high in the red and blue range with the green range being about average.
The blue in the US roundel is dark, but close to correct, the khaki uniforms look right. You can see just a bit of the Hinomaru's red showing through the white paint and the Japanese officer's uniforms are showing the dark green issue.
Also, in running the "eye dropper" over the black crosses, it was virtually consistent with a black range with literally no hint at a green majority. If anything, the crosses had a higher red content, but this was due to the photo's red and blue content.
The color balance, according to the histogram, was was high in the red and blue range with the green range being about average.
The blue in the US roundel is dark, but close to correct, the khaki uniforms look right. You can see just a bit of the Hinomaru's red showing through the white paint and the Japanese officer's uniforms are showing the dark green issue.
Also, in running the "eye dropper" over the black crosses, it was virtually consistent with a black range with literally no hint at a green majority. If anything, the crosses had a higher red content, but this was due to the photo's red and blue content.
- Thread starter
- #69
These were noticed by the Japanese side to Gen. MacArthur in Manila.
Had nothing to do with the Ie shima mission.
I should have added this fact much earlier -
What the Japanese side was afraid most was the friendly fire as the war was not over yet.
In this sense, "black" would have been safer than green for the crosses as the Japanese thought the Germans were still friends.
What the Japanese side was afraid most was the friendly fire as the war was not over yet.
In this sense, "black" would have been safer than green for the crosses as the Japanese thought the Germans were still friends.
- Thread starter
- #72
Thanks for the info!
fubar57
General
Something may or may not be in here. Against camp policy to download so I'll just post the link and you can download the PDF. 245 pages entitled, "Surrender and Occupation of Japan and Korea" dated 1946...https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a438971.pdf
fubar57
General
fubar57
General
Last one before work, communique from MacArthur include. http://www.veteransresources.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Mil-Hist-WWII-Green-Cross-Flights.pdf
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,677
- May 13, 2018
I just went back through the thread photos because in the early ones I thought I had seen an African American with a camera around the Japanese delegation. and thought it unusual. With fubar's link to the Harold Montgomery data, I thought I could spot him. With black and white film and sun tans, they all look the same. Mr. Montgomery shot the same aircraft in the area, specifically the P-61 and the B-17 dumbo, although mistaking the type. He was after all a file clerk in an engineering unit, not an aviation buff.
Good stuff guys!
- Thread starter
- #78
So I asked a professional photographer I know his opinion on the green/black cross theory. After looking at the pix he sent me this:
I may have finally found an answer. I tripped across this link during lunch today … http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/
Part of what I have been looking for is the exact shade of green that was required – a sort of World War II equivalent of today's Pantone color numbers. I have, for instance, a half-dozen specified colors of green documented for PT boats used in the South Pacific. In this instance, given the circumstances and the timing in those days immediately following August 14th, that is likely a fool's errand. Since the other colors in the photographs appear to be within a range of normalcy, this may be as close as we ever get.
If the green paint used was sufficiently dark, it may have registered on the film of the day as black.
So the debate goes on...
I may have finally found an answer. I tripped across this link during lunch today … http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/
Part of what I have been looking for is the exact shade of green that was required – a sort of World War II equivalent of today's Pantone color numbers. I have, for instance, a half-dozen specified colors of green documented for PT boats used in the South Pacific. In this instance, given the circumstances and the timing in those days immediately following August 14th, that is likely a fool's errand. Since the other colors in the photographs appear to be within a range of normalcy, this may be as close as we ever get.
If the green paint used was sufficiently dark, it may have registered on the film of the day as black.
So the debate goes on...
fubar57
General
I just look at the communique from MacArthur and wonder who would have the balls to go against his order...
That was "Gunrei-bu (軍令部 = The Naval General Staff Office )".
