Use of Zepplins in the U-boat war

[GrauGeist]

Speaking of Airships, the Airport I work at is a former WW2 US Navy Airship base. It was used to patrol the Gulf of Mexico during the war. Unfortunately only part of the huge Airship hangar exists today, along with a few bunkers.

I grew up near the LTA base in Santa Ana, that had two monster airship hangars.
I recall as a kid, Dad took me there on occasion and one time, the doors were shut for some reason, and it was raining inside - the doors typically remained slightly open to prevent this.

 

[parsifal]

This link gives a pretty good history and visual representation of the US airship fleet

USN Airships - Air Forces - WesWorld


Note that some of the entries in that website are hypothetical.

Non-rigid blimps reduced the cost of building markedly. Between the wars experiments were carried out for airships to carry up to four small fighters each for defence. Im unsure if these fighters were able to re-tether to the mother ship after launch.

The USN maintained a sizable fleet of rigid and non rigid dirigibles at various times in and before the war. The fact that they were the only nation to be able to produce helium in commercial quantities made this possible. Britain toyed with airships I think until the US ban was imposed on the overseas sale of helium I think in 1928.


Germany had the most advanced airship designs during the interwar years, culminating in the Hindenburg. The fateful decision to use Hydrogen because of the non availability of helium at least contributed to the disaster that followed. Hindenburg was designed as a helium filled craft initially. The loss of the Hindenburg was a heavy blow to the German Zeppelin program. But the company pressed such that by 1939 three were in existence, with another half sister to the Hindenburg under construction. But with war looming, the decision was taken by the german government to scrap all three craft and use the salvaged material for conventional aircraft production. This had already happed for the Hindenburg wreckage, which had been returned from Lakehurst some time in 1938. By November 1939, all three of the remaining Zeppelins had been scrapped.

The problem for Germany was threefold. Firstly the materials cost in construction of rigid designs, which they had favoured. Second, the vulnerability issue....there was simply nowhere for the Zeppelins to operate safely in the ETO. this even occurred in WWI. Thirdly the risks of the ground based structures and reserves made tham far too dangerous to operate. The Zppelin hangar, with the huge reserves of Hydrogen had been completely demolished by March 1940


A , and helium in place of hydrogen was more or less mandatory after the Hindenburg incident. Though I only have a vague knowledge of German Zeppelins in WWIIand use of H

 

[GrauGeist]

...Im unsure if these fighters were able to re-tether to the mother ship after launch.

The USS Akron and USS Macon both could launch and recover their fighters by way of a "Skyhook"... yes, there is such a thing.
They could carry up to five aircraft, though three was the standard.

The fighters carried were the Curtiss F9C "Sparrowhawk" equipped with a special structure on the upper wing that allowed for launch and recovery from the skyhook.

The Consolidated N2Y-1 trainer was also used aboard either ship.

 

[Shortround6]

US Navy pictures by way of Wiki.
The wing span was 25 ft 6in (7,77 meters)

 

[GrauGeist]

Here's some footage of Consolidated N2Y-1 trainers learning the hooking and unhooking proceedure with the USS Akron.

 

[parsifal]

looks difficult to hok back onto the airship

 

[special ed]

Because of the speeds and lack of vortices, not nearly as difficult as the F-85 hooking up to the B-36

 

[GrauGeist]

looks difficult to hok back onto the airship

These were rookies practicing, the seasoned pilots made it look easy with their Sparrowhawks.

 

[GrauGeist]

Here's a video of the USS Akron in flight.
Great footage of the recovery of a Sparrowhawk.

 

[GrauGeist]

Some fantastic footage of the USS Macon with the F9C and N2Y-1 in action.
(The music is a little goofy, though...)

 

[special ed]

I had joined a CAP sqdn because many of the members were WW2 vets. One man who worked at Consolidated the whole war, brought his 16 year old to the meetings. Once when the airships were discussed, he announced he had a piece of the gas bag from the Shenandoah in the attic. His son was completely shocked and knew nothing about it. The Sunday after the crash, it became a sight seeing attraction and people from a large area came to see. The father, who was a young boy then, said small pieces of wreckage was scattered over a great area and people were picking up souvenirs.

 

[The Basket]

Hindenburg was almost as big as the Titanic and made a 747 look like a Cessna 170. I think it's the biggest object ever to fly.

But by 1939 it was not cost effective and was not as luxurious as advertised.

A cruise liner was slower but had better facilities and an aircraft was much faster.

On it's fatal last journey, it had more crew than passengers and could only accommodate about 70 passengers. It was a very expensive ticket to go 60 mph and share one toilet while sleeping in a bunk bed.

 

[fliger747]

During WWI (apparently) Zepplin gas cells were made from cow stomachs which could contain the Hydrogen.

Early in the battle of the Atlantic I can see where a very long range Zepplin might have utility finding convoys. However when the jeep carriers and Very Long Range aircraft showed up, the game would be mostly over. Imagine a Zeppelin and a Liberator fighting it out! Or even better a PBY making incendiary bombing runs on one...

 

[parsifal]

With an air group of 5 small a/c, one wonders why the allies did not utilize airships in a similar fashion to escort carriers and Mac ships, or even catapult launched hurricanes.

Assume for a moment, an airship, helium filled, of sufficient size to carry 5 fighters and 5 ASW aircraft. Travels at 60knots to an escort carriers 10knots. Safe from attack from the U-boat. Able to keep marauding condors away with its fighters. Fitted with ASV radar. What prevented this from being properly utilized. I'm surre there were reasons....probably cost and weather vulnerability....but still one would expect that it would at least be looked at. instead the allies frittered away a huge effort to perfecting Pykrete for the ice berg carriers

The germans not pursuing the concept I can relate to. the americans not pursuing and escort carrier airship is harder to justify.

 

[GrauGeist]

The impression I get, is that the rigid airships were more of a liability in adverse weather than the blimps.

Nearly all of the USN's rigid airships met with disaster during storms (prior to the war), where the blimps that did serve in WWII did not.

Of all the USN blimps that served, only two instances come to mind, where there was loss of life and one was the blimp that battled one-on-one with a U-boat and was shot down, the one crewman being killed by sharks and the other, was off the California coast, where the crew disappeared after reporting a possible Japanese sub. The blimp was then wandering about unmanned until it came down on it's own - but neither was weather related.

Considering that the Atlantic can be a savage climate, it might be safe to say that a rigid airship would not be a viable solution.

 

[bobbysocks]

I remember a story of a blimp off of the coast of Fl that engaged a U-boat and sunk it. Was an instance of the right place at the right time as blimps don't move fast. They fly over my house all the time heading from a base in Ohio to Pittsburgh to cover the football games.

As for hydrogen being safer than avgas. I will say no/maybe. Avgas is not flammable...avgas vapor mixed with air is extremely flammable. You can, and I have flicked a match into gas which was of the same octane as lower avgas. The match went out and there were no flames. I would bet that the tank Adler drilled into had very little if any liquid avgas as it was junk and was more vapor. I could be wrong and mean no disrespect. With no air there was virtually no chance of fire....hence the self sealing bladder liner on fighters later in the war. It would shrink as fuel was depleted so there was not a empty void of air...that would be needed to be vented in to keep a vacuum from occurring. An API round could pass through the wall of the tank, into the avgas, and back out without setting the tank aflame...because it was devoid of O2. If the ratio of gas to O2 is higher for the gas the engine will not start...it will flood. So, in this instance I will say no. Hydrogen is already in the gaseous state so should ignite more readily. I would image it still needs O2 to burn. I do not know how pure the H was in these zeps. But it was already in the vapor state so a leak would be easier to set aflame as it mixed with air than a liquid at high alt and colder temps which would retard the flash point. I haven't messed with hydrogen so can't attest to it fully.

 

[GrauGeist]

We used to make Hydrogen by taking iron filings and mixing them with old electrolyte from car batteries.
The result was enough to puff up a big trashbag, which would float away like a birthday balloon.

We then got the brilliant idea to fill a trashbag with the Hydrogen and tie a flaming rag to the bottom. As it floated away, the flames reached the bag and there was an anti-climactic "floof" of dull orange-red flames as the Hydrogen ignited.

We were expecting all sorts of mayhem and carnage...but the distinct "floof" sound and the weak red-orange fireball was almost embarrassing.

 

[The Basket]

Hydrogen is dangerous but so is gasoline.
Leaking Hydrogen will always float away and not pool like liquid.

Airships were a evolutionary dead end and were replaced by aircraft which could fly in all weather and didn't need loads of crew.

Hydrogen has poor lifting anyway which is why the airship was so big to carry not much. Very inefficient.

Oddly the TV camera showed the destruction but the other crashed airships which had greater loss of life were also a marker. This airship idea ain't flying.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I remember a story of a blimp off of the coast of Fl that engaged a U-boat and sunk it. Was an instance of the right place at the right time as blimps don't move fast. They fly over my house all the time heading from a base in Ohio to Pittsburgh to cover the football games.

As for hydrogen being safer than avgas. I will say no/maybe. Avgas is not flammable...avgas vapor mixed with air is extremely flammable. You can, and I have flicked a match into gas which was of the same octane as lower avgas. The match went out and there were no flames. I would bet that the tank Adler drilled into had very little if any liquid avgas as it was junk and was more vapor. I could be wrong and mean no disrespect. With no air there was virtually no chance of fire....hence the self sealing bladder liner on fighters later in the war. It would shrink as fuel was depleted so there was not a empty void of air...that would be needed to be vented in to keep a vacuum from occurring. An API round could pass through the wall of the tank, into the avgas, and back out without setting the tank aflame...because it was devoid of O2. If the ratio of gas to O2 is higher for the gas the engine will not start...it will flood. So, in this instance I will say no. Hydrogen is already in the gaseous state so should ignite more readily. I would image it still needs O2 to burn. I do not know how pure the H was in these zeps. But it was already in the vapor state so a leak would be easier to set aflame as it mixed with air than a liquid at high alt and colder temps which would retard the flash point. I haven't messed with hydrogen so can't attest to it fully.

You are absolutely correct. Maybe a gallon of fuel was all that was in it.

 

[Graeme]

During WWI (apparently) Zepplin gas cells were made from cow stomachs which could contain the Hydrogen.

It took one million cow stomachs to create 20 gas cells for the R31.