Vultee Vengeance - 82 Squadron RAF

[MorrisOxford]

Vengeance Mk. 1 of the Vengeance Development Flight, Karachi(?) 1943.

82 Squadron RAF were the first to get Vengeances, and were instrumental in discovering and solving the many problems that these aircraft were delivered with. The leader of the unit was Wing Commander W.H. McMichael (centre, standing immediately behind the unit placard).
According to my late father (back row on the wing, third from right with his "Bombay Bowler" underarm) the Wing Co was a really good chap to work for, who took soundings from everyone involved and was popular with aircrew and groundcrew alike. He saw the potential in the aircraft and was fully commited to sorting out the problems and lobbying the top brass to make sure they were not used operationally until they were safe. Frustratingly for 82 Squadron they sorted their problem aircraft out, saw them transferred to other units and then were issued with another lot of duff ones to fix.

 

[MorrisOxford]

Vultee Vengeance Mk III Serial FB983 'L' Jumchar, British India, February or March 1944 .

According to Joe Baugher's list it originally had USAAF serial 41-31114. It was a Vultee built, Lend Lease aircraft which survived the war - being finally SOC May 9, 1946.

Note the wing mounted bomb racks.
By this time, Vengeances of 82 Squadron RAF were regularly operating with a full bomb load of 1500 lbs - 2x500's in the internal bomb bay and 2x250 's on the wing racks.
Personnel are ground crew responsible for this aircraft showing off their recently aquired "Slouch Hats".
(My father 1st left in the first image, 2nd left in the second and third images).

Andy

 

[Mosquito45]

View attachment 764275
Vengeance Mk. 1 of the Vengeance Development Flight, Karachi(?) 1943.

82 Squadron RAF were the first to get Vengeances, and were instrumental in discovering and solving the many problems that these aircraft were delivered with. The leader of the unit was Wing Commander W.H. McMichael (centre, standing immediately behind the unit placard).
According to my late father (back row on the wing, third from right with his "Bombay Bowler" underarm) the Wing Co was a really good chap to work for, who took soundings from everyone involved and was popular with aircrew and groundcrew alike. He saw the potential in the aircraft and was fully commited to sorting out the problems and lobbying the top brass to make sure they were not used operationally until they were safe. Frustratingly for 82 Squadron they sorted their problem aircraft out, saw them transferred to other units and then were issued with another lot of duff ones to fix.

Hi, Wonderful photos, I have the one showing the VD flight with several aircrew identified from 82 Sqdn. W/C John Hubert McMichael was indeed by all accounts a most respected leader I am in the latter stages of writing the history of 82 in Burma flying the VV and the Mosquito, my uncle was a navigator from early 45 flying the Mossie. I have corresponded with air and ground crew over the years, I would be interested to positively identify your father for the squadron records and indeed the photo above.

 

[Gnomey]

Nice shots!

 

[Wayne Little]

Great shots...!

 

[lameypa]

H

Hi, Wonderful photos, I have the one showing the VD flight with several aircrew identified from 82 Sqdn. W/C John Hubert McMichael was indeed by all accounts a most respected leader I am in the latter stages of writing the history of 82 in Burma flying the VV and the Mosquito, my uncle was a navigator from early 45 flying the Mossie. I have corresponded with air and ground crew over the years, I would be interested to positively identify your father for the squadron records and indeed the photo above.

Hi, really interesting to see this information. My Grandad John Henry William "Jack" Lamey from Appledore, North Devon was a Warrant Officer in 82 squadron in Burma. He attended Cranwell in the 30's and is second from left on the middle-row of the 1939 squadron photo. He was Wireless Operator/aircrew pre-war and claimed he was one of the few people to survive a crash in a Blenheim when he flew in a 25 squadron plane to fix the radio in 1939 and the pilot forgot to change the prop pitch ending up in a field in Hutton Cranswick near Beverley (apparently as he emerged shaken from the plane an old farmer asked "are you going to take off again?")

Clearly he was already specialising as a radio mechanic at this point, a move that probably saved his life looking at what happened to 82 squadron in the early stages of the war. He was mentioned in dispatches in Feb 1944 and awarded an MBE post-war. He told my Dad about the latter, but never stated the circumstances of the former. I recently did a search of newspaper articles and found the attached which stated he was mentioned in dispatches for "dive-bombing" Japanese troops. Do you think it is likely that specialist ground-crew would end up flying in late '43/early '44? On the one-hand, I suppose he was a trained gunner and being from a sea-faring family did know the rudiments of navigation, on the other it seems odd the squadron would allow him to fly after keeping him away from operations for five years. His service number was 567664 if that is of help.

 

[Mosquito45]

H

Hi, really interesting to see this information. My Grandad John Henry William "Jack" Lamey from Appledore, North Devon was a Warrant Officer in 82 squadron in Burma. He attended Cranwell in the 30's and is second from left on the middle-row of the 1939 squadron photo. He was Wireless Operator/aircrew pre-war and claimed he was one of the few people to survive a crash in a Blenheim when he flew in a 25 squadron plane to fix the radio in 1939 and the pilot forgot to change the prop pitch ending up in a field in Hutton Cranswick near Beverley (apparently as he emerged shaken from the plane an old farmer asked "are you going to take off again?")

Clearly he was already specialising as a radio mechanic at this point, a move that probably saved his life looking at what happened to 82 squadron in the early stages of the war. He was mentioned in dispatches in Feb 1944 and awarded an MBE post-war. He told my Dad about the latter, but never stated the circumstances of the former. I recently did a search of newspaper articles and found the attached which stated he was mentioned in dispatches for "dive-bombing" Japanese troops. Do you think it is likely that specialist ground-crew would end up flying in late '43/early '44? On the one-hand, I suppose he was a trained gunner and being from a sea-faring family did know the rudiments of navigation, on the other it seems odd the squadron would allow him to fly after keeping him away from operations for five years. His service number was 567664 if that is of help.

Hi, very thought provoking all round. I would be really interested to know more about his time in Burma as I have just had the Squadron history published (May 24) whilst in Burma. I have had a quick look through the ORB's that I have, I cannot see W/O Lamey? This may be because I don't have a full set? When the squadron converted from the Bristol Blenheim to the Vengeance a lot of gunners were no longer needed and posted out of the squadron. The back seat of the Vengeance was a dule role of wireless operator/air gunner with a bit of navigation thrown in, this would fit with the details you have posted. I will continue to search for his name, I wonder do you have his logbook that detail his flights, posting etc?

 

[lameypa]

Hi, very thought provoking all round. I would be really interested to know more about his time in Burma as I have just had the Squadron history published (May 24) whilst in Burma. I have had a quick look through the ORB's that I have, I cannot see W/O Lamey? This mmy Grandad's ay be because I don't have a full set? When the squadron converted from the Bristol Blenheim to the Vengeance a lot of gunners were no longer needed and posted out of the squadron. The back seat of the Vengeance was a dule role of wireless operator/air gunner with a bit of navigation thrown in, this would fit with the details you have posted. I will continue to search for his name, I wonder do you have his logbook that detail his flights, posting etc?

I have a copy of your book! - it's a fascinating read. I didn't really know anything about the Vengeance, sounds like it really found it's niche in the Burma campaign. I just looked for an ORB on find-my-past and there doesn't seem to be one. The only record is the mention in dispatches. It could be journalistic exaggeration in the article, but Grandad's father-in-law is the source of information which suggests it should be accurate. Seems unlikely it wouldn't be captured in a ORB though? Perhaps he was supporting the bombing on the ground as a signaller and things were conflated.

My Dad has some squadron pictures that may be of interest. I will obtain copies when I can. We don't have a log-book unfortunately, I do have a couple of menus from the journey to India in 1942. SS Khedive was sunk in 1944 with great loss of life. On the back there are some names in which might provide a clue of who Jack was working with in the squadron- Wood, Vaughan, Powell, Grigg and Hanon (?). There is also a name of WO HR Rowe on another scrap of paper on a equipment chit from RAF Watton for sunglasses maybe (not too exciting I know!). Rowe's service number is one below my Grandad's.

 

[Mosquito45]

I have a copy of your book! - it's a fascinating read. I didn't really know anything about the Vengeance, sounds like it really found it's niche in the Burma campaign. I just looked for an ORB on find-my-past and there doesn't seem to be one. The only record is the mention in dispatches. It could be journalistic exaggeration in the article, but Grandad's father-in-law is the source of information which suggests it should be accurate. Seems unlikely it wouldn't be captured in a ORB though? Perhaps he was supporting the bombing on the ground as a signaller and things were conflated.

My Dad has some squadron pictures that may be of interest. I will obtain copies when I can. We don't have a log-book unfortunately, I do have a couple of menus from the journey to India in 1942. SS Khedive was sunk in 1944 with great loss of life. On the back there are some names in which might provide a clue of who Jack was working with in the squadron- Wood, Vaughan, Powell, Grigg and Hanon (?). There is also a name of WO HR Rowe on another scrap of paper on a equipment chit from RAF Watton for sunglasses maybe (not too exciting I know!). Rowe's service number is one below my Grandad's.

Hi again, From the information you have provided it looks as though he did the majority of his operations on Blenheims in the UK and went to India/Burma with the squadron. I bet if you look at the ORB's for 1942 he will feature. It is highly likely that he converted to the Vengeance, I need to download more ORB's from the NA website to see if he flew any ops on conversion? The date of his MID is 1944 somewhat later on, no mention of this in the early 1944 ORB summaries- could this have been for an earlier event? If you apply for his RAF service records from the MOD it will give his postings etc, that could fill in the blanks a little? I will keep searching what I have. I would love to see any squadron photos if that is possible?

 

[Ascent]

I shared the experiences of a pilot flying Vengeance's a number of years ago on this forum. You may have seen it, if not I've put the link below.

Flying the Vultee Vengance

On another forum I've been following a WWII RAF pilot talk about his career. Joining up after the battle of Britain he learned to fly on the Arnold scheme before being converted on Spitfires when he returned to the UK. He was then sent to the Far East to fly the Vengance because that's RAF...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[lameypa]

Hi again, From the information you have provided it looks as though he did the majority of his operations on Blenheims in the UK and went to India/Burma with the squadron. I bet if you look at the ORB's for 1942 he will feature. It is highly likely that he converted to the Vengeance, I need to download more ORB's from the NA website to see if he flew any ops on conversion? The date of his MID is 1944 somewhat later on, no mention of this in the early 1944 ORB summaries- could this have been for an earlier event? If you apply for his RAF service records from the MOD it will give his postings etc, that could fill in the blanks a little? I will keep searching what I have. I would love to see any squadron photos if that is possible?

Hi! I agree the MID is probably from 1943 and published in early 1944. It's puzzling because I think he had become a specialised radio mechanic pre-war and only flew to test radios normally like in the 1939 Blenheim crash. Finding out he was involved in operations is a bit of a curveball!

Really grateful, for your help with this and for the book which explains so much that we didn't know. Link looks very interesting- I'll share the photos as soon as I can

 

[OldGeezer]

I shared the experiences of a pilot flying Vengeance's a number of years ago on this forum. You may have seen it, if not I've put the link below.

Flying the Vultee Vengance

On another forum I've been following a WWII RAF pilot talk about his career. Joining up after the battle of Britain he learned to fly on the Arnold scheme before being converted on Spitfires when he returned to the UK. He was then sent to the Far East to fly the Vengance because that's RAF...

ww2aircraft.net

Thanks for posting this, it made fascinating reading and it's good to hear something nice being said about a much-maligned aircraft.

 

[Mosquito45]

Hi! I agree the MID is probably from 1943 and published in early 1944. It's puzzling because I think he had become a specialised radio mechanic pre-war and only flew to test radios normally like in the 1939 Blenheim crash. Finding out he was involved in operations is a bit of a curveball!

Really grateful, for your help with this and for the book which explains so much that we didn't know. Link looks very interesting- I'll share the photos as soon as I can

If I can help further then please do ask, I hope you can obtain a copy of his RAF Service records, I believe they are free to family? I looked on the London Gazette for mention of his MID which features in edition 2nd June 1944. No details unfortunately. Another great source of information is the Air Historical Branch, might be worth dropping them a line.

 

[Mosquito45]

Thanks for posting this, it made fascinating reading and it's good to hear something nice being said about a much-maligned aircraft.

Oh wow, I haven't seen this before. Simply wonderful, what a story! Thanks for making me aware.

 

[lameypa]

If I can help further then please do ask, I hope you can obtain a copy of his RAF Service records, I believe they are free to family? I looked on the London Gazette for mention of his MID which features in edition 2nd June 1944. No details unfortunately. Another great source of information is the Air Historical Branch, might be worth dropping them a line.

There is another album of photos that hasn't been digitised, the album I have has a lot of Blenheim related 82 squadron photos. There is this picture of the sergeant's football team in India, unfortunately it has nicknames rather than names on the back. My Grandad is second from right on the back row.

 

[Mosquito45]

Hi again, I have a number of photos from this period including the one attached. I think you Grandad is second from the right?