VVS Vs. RAF

[delcyros]

Well, Plan_D, it would be hard for me to prove that this is not my main motivation, but originally we wanted to keep it all simple. If you take Commonwealth, we have a different situation with key war theatres in Pakistan/Kasachstan and a probability that china, serbia, bulgaria and slovakia entering the soviet side. I don´t want it to be this way, it´s almost even now pure speculation and this has to be underlined.
If we factor VVS and RAF only, we have more insight to compare these airforces, or not? Stay it a simple way, we are not comparing worlds just airforces, we also left the economy out here.

 

[Glider]

Delc
I am more than happy to keep it to the RAF, that was the arrangement and to be honest the only point it impacts is the numbers. It makes no difference to the aircraft themselves.
Its similar to the aircraft where I have kept away from American aircraft used by the RAF.
Afterall one of the great unknowns is how would the germans have done if they had only been fighting the USSR. An extra 4-500 planes at the right time in the right place could have made all the difference

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Deralder, I don't get your last posting can I ask you to rephrase it?

I was commenting on Delc's post about the Russian planes having "radios" that could recieve but not respond much into 1943.

 

[Udet]

It is crystal clear Mr. Delcyros has quite a strong opinion on the capabilities of the VVS.

Keeping in mind no air force, at all, is a perfect organization is that we must assess the strong and weak points each one observes, as it has been pretty much done in this thread.

Now, Mr. Delcyros is completely confident when affirming the VVS made a very significant contribution for "halting" the Luftwaffe during the winter of 1941 around and over Moscow.

He states soviet radar stations made an excellent work vectoring VVS fighter formations to intercept German formations. This deserves further underlining and remarking for it is, to a very important extent, untrue.

I have several books on the evolution of radar and its usage during WWII amongst the many combatant stations.

You might be surprised to learn that when it comes to electronics, the soviets were located well behind the Brits and the Germans. As the war progressed and the Germans were getting pushed west, forward VVS airfields hardly had any of such equipment, even when they had Lend-Lease radar sets at their disposal in their stock.

Do you know, Mr. Delcyros, why the USAAF decided to cancell shuttle bombing missions? For the fundamental reason of the absolute lack of guaranties for their planes and crews in soviet airfields: no radar, weak ground control and weak air defense.

He russians had some stuff of their own when the war commenced, but most radar sets used by the soviet VVS and navy were Lend-Leased items of USA manufacture.


You refuse to acknowledge the VVS did not play any significant role in halting the Luftwaffe in the Moscow area during 1941.

Yep, there were soviet radar stations by the time, but from where is it that you get they could vector their formations to intercept the Germans?

Did you know that hardly one year before, Battle of Britain, the British radar system of the entire south and east parts of the island did not perform as the British history tells?

"We could see the German formations even when they were assemblying after taking off over France."

Well, further researches proved that AT LEAST 50% of the times Hurricane and Spitfire units vectored to intercept following radar guidance, simply and flatly found nothing.


December 7, 1941, while the Germans were around Moscow, a team of operators of a radar station in Hawaii completely failed to interpret what the screen was showing them: a formation of carrier air-borne bombers and fighters approaching Oahu.

What makes you think soviet radar operators were more skilled in the art of interpreting radar information than the guys of the RAF and USAAF were?

The RAF had a bunch of ancient Swordwfish equipped with small radar sets in the open cokcpit for tracking and attacking axis vessels supplying Rommel in North Africa.

Did the soviets ever came close to fit whatever of their planes with electronics?

The miserable weather of November, December and January of 1941 in the USSR hindered air raids and air support operations during the vast majority of days. Most Luftwaffe losses were caused by the cold, on the ground due to the open conditions of forward Luftwaffe bases, and not soviet fighters.

Now, you might bring forward the argument of number of sorties flown by the VVS during such period, still, soviet pilots -no matter how many missions might have flown- lacked skills to fly under such miserable conditions, just like the pilots of any other air force of the planet.

Noteworhty to mention is the fact that when said winter ended, the main axis of the German war effort in the USSR switched south: eastern ukraine/don river bend and the caucasus entrance. The Luftwaffe which had been active in bigger numbers in Mitte Gruppe, likewise, saw its main effort now in the south, and simply retook the role it had played before the winter of 1941: the slaughter of the VVS.

 

[Glider]

Thanks for clarifying the post.

 

[delcyros]

Well, Udet, if all the losses of the Luftwaffe at/ around Moscow were inflicted by climates than the Luftwaffe would have even more worse pilots /ground crews than the VVS did have. Lets take a look into the german loss listings...
okey, we have from 7th of december to 8th of march a much reduced sortie number and squads flying with around one third of operational strenght. The reason for this might be the bad weather, agreed. During the same timeframe the Luftwaffe lost (by enemy actions I underline) 559 planes total and a further 317 planes have been damaged beyond 25%. That are almost 5 complete Geschwader destroyed. Do you believe it was all the snow, which destroyed them or the icy runways? If so I would be surprised because the Luftwaffe didn´t took comparable losses in the winter 39/40 and 40/41.
I should also remind you that most of the 1941 radar equippment wasn´t from Britain but from Germany. Lend lease took in 1942 the most effect to the equippment of the VVS (in percentages). And the effectiveness will be discussed later, I am still collecting material.

 

[plan_D]

Not another "Lead-Lease didn't help the Soviet Union one bit" goon. Anywho, I'll let this discussion span out before getting on to why the Commonwealth should be involved in this.

 

[CTO]

About Il-2:
Claiming and reality are different things.

Out of these 36000 Il-2 "only" 33000 were put at the VVS. Over 10.000 still existed at the end of war. 23.000 were lost complete, over 12000 were lost in combatsorties. Out of these 12000, 4400 were lost in dogfight (means due fighters) and over 4000 were kill by AAA. The rest were crashed by accidents and so on due combat sorties. (different russian books)

Some may wonder about the high loss rate at the non-front, but thats quite normal of most airforces in ww2. VVS at the beginning had poor training sometimes even less than 10 hours at the special type.
For german LW in 1942 german officers stated that losses in the rear were several times higher, than losses at the front. One officer even stated they were 6 times higher. (Source: GLM-Konferenzen, not in book, but in Bundesarchiv RL 3/17). For example, in 6/1944 Germany had ~1500 fighters at the front, but 6000 fighters at front and rear (2513)

 

[Glider]

Delc
I have some numbers for you. It should be noted that these exclude training, support, reserves and are from the Order of Battle for July 1941

B17 2
B24 2
Beaufighter 15
Beaufort 5
Boston 2
Bristol Blenhiem 23
Buffalo 1
Catalina 5
DC 2 1
Defiant 5
Halifax 5
Hampden 5
Havoc 3
Hawker Audax 1
Hudson 9
Hurricane 37
Kittyhawk 1
Lancaster 1
Lysander 5
Manchester 3
Maryland 2
Mossie IV 1
Short 26 Flying boat 1
Short Sterling 3
Spitfire VB 37
Sunderland 5
Tomahawk IIa 8
Typhoon 1
Vengence 1
Vickers Vilderbeast/Vincent 4
Walrus 1
Wellesey 1
Wellington 29
whirlwind 2
Whitley 4

Some of these are very surprising but we did have some back woods areas across the world.

 

[Glider]

I should have said that these were the no of squadrons of each type. It was an interesting time as we were obviously getting rid of a lot of old types and starting to introduce the newer modern types such as the Typhoon, Mossie, Lancaster. Halifax which were to become the backbone of the second half of the war.

 

[plan_D]

I assume that's for the ETO only. Do you have the order of battle for the CBI? We had 37 Squadrons of Spitfire Vb? I don't believe that, not all would have been V Spitfires.

 

[Glider]

PLan D. Suprisingly no, its for the whole world. As for the Spit 5B that is a mistake it should read Spit 5. A number of squadrons were converting from the II to the V and had both on their books. A similar situation applied to the lysanders being replaced with Tomahawks. In these cases I went with the later plane.

I was as suprised as anyone as to what I found. Its clear that the concentration on the production on key planes in 1940 had had an effect.
Its also clear that outer outposts of the empire were left untouched. Let face it the Audax's and Vincents didn't stand a chance against anyone. To include them in an order of battle is a sign of how stretched we were.

To all intents and purposes all the Spits were in the ETO and a large proportion of the hurricanes were around the rest of the globe.

The info was from a book called The Squadrons of the Royal Air Force by J.J. Halley. published by Air-Britain Publications 1980. I don't have a copy myself and will need to get one to check a lot of the detail.

If I could work out how to attach a file i will post the spreadsheet which gives the RAF Order of Battle for the war in 3 month chunks

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well Udet it is quite clear too that you are very one sided in your opinions also.

As for this I agree with Del here. The Luftwaffe on the Ost Front were not beaten by climate or themselves (Well partially themselves, they were not getting the supplies and spare parts that they needed) however the Bf-109 and Fw-190's were very capable aircraft in the winter climate of Russia. The shear mass amounts of Russian aircraft had a big part in defeating the Luftwaffe.

Yes I agree with you that the Luftwaffe was superior to the VVS however the VVS had a big part in stopping the Luftwaffe.

 

[plan_D]

Come December 1941 the CBI was getting old Hurricane I and IIA as well as Blenheims and Lysanders. There was at least 3 Squadrons of Hurricane, 2 Squadrons of Blenheim and 2 Squardons of Lysanders.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

CBI?

 

[plan_D]

China-Burma-India theatre, the forgotten one.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ah okay.

 

[Glider]

PLan D
Under india for July 1941 its down as
Audax 2 squads
Blenhiem 1 1 squad
DC2 (any idea what this is for?) 1 squad
Catalina 1 squad
Vilderbeast 1 squad

Jan 42
Mohawk IV 1 Squad
Lysander 1 Squad
Hurricane II 1 Squad
DC2 1 Squad
Blenhiem IV 1 Squad
Havoc 1 Squad (This I doubt as its too new)
Wellington 1 Squad
Audax 1 Squad
Hudson 1 Squad
Vilderbeast 1 Squad

So you can see that things are getting better, but only just and maintanence must have been the stuff of nightmares

 

[delcyros]

I am impressed, Glider.
For the VVS I need some more time (days), because there are lot of different opin ions in the books, so I try to post the most common numbers and give the not that reasonable numbers in breckages.
I will also exclude the far eastern VVS airforces, because they did played a role only in the last weeks of 1941 after their relocation to the european part of russia.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There has been a lot of good info put out here, I think we all can learn from everyone.