VVS Vs. RAF

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by plan_D, May 24, 2005.

  1. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    I don't want the discussion to die out because it's a good one.

    The VVS didn't need a heavy bomber force because it had the USAAF and RAF doing all the dirty work for them in the skies over Europe. If it had been VVS against the RAF, the VVS would need to deploy heavy bombers against the RAF.

    The RAF had a better high altitude force. It's bombers would get through Soviet air space almost unhampered because the VVS didn't have any high altitude capable fighters, they didn't need them because the Luftwaffe was generally intercepting or attacking at low altitudes.

    The RAF did however have effective low altitude fighters, much more capable than VVS aircraft. The Spitfire Mk.IX and XIV were better in their respective times than what the VVS could field.

    The night campaigns would be all to the RAF because of the Mosquito being the best night-fighter of the war, the VVS had nothing to field against it.

    The Mosquito could effectively hit with precision during the day, just like it did during the day against the Luftwaffe.

    The RAF were only inaccurate in 1940-1941. Electronics began to play their part in 1942 and all the way until the end. The Soviet Union provides many large targets for the RAF, all within range of the RAF Heavy Bombers. The VVS could not strike back...

    The bombing campaign over Europe crippled the German war machine, the production numbers only rise because A.Speer put Germany on to full War Time production in 1942. Had he done so and the Allied bomber offensive never happened, the production numbers would have probably been doubled!

    In November 1944 (I think the month is right), the RAF dropped more tonnage of bombs on Europe than the US 8th AF.

    All the VVS had was a supremecy in numbers, something the RAF dealt with in the BoB against the Luftwaffe.
     
  2. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    I actually dont see where the discussion would be planD... There really shouldnt be a debate about what u posted above. Its all true....

    As a side bar, why is it that the VVS had many more pilots with 30 or more kills???? It wasnt because of better machinery, that much is obvious... Targets of opportunity??? #'s of sorties??? Time in the cockpit??? Quality of the opposition????
     
  3. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    Del, disagrees. :lol:

    More targets. The Luftwaffe was largely on the defensive on the Western Front after the BoB and then, again, after Africa. All the offensive strength went to Russia. Offensive strength consisting of Stukas, He-111s, Ju-88s and Do-17s....EASY TARGETS!
     
  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    I can tell you why: Soviet Propoganda :!:

    As a side note: Many Soviet kills were confirmed by, guess what.. the Partisans ! (So much for a reliable confirmation system, wouldn't you say :rolleyes: )
     
  5. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    I really dont doubt that Kozhedub and Rechkalov and Pokryskin were the leading Aces for the VVS, but the #'s for just about every country are always slightly questionable, with the Soviets slightly more critiqued...

    OK maybe alittle more than slightly...

    But, a kill that is confirmed by a wingman is a kill.... If the propoganda machine was in full effect, the #'s of kills would have been similar to the German claims, not in the 50's and 60's...

    And Propoganda aside, these guys were some of the greatest fighter pilots to EVER squeeze the trigger........ They fought against some of the greatest machines to ever fly with pieces of shiit for planes, and tactics that they practically made up as the fought for their lives....

    We have discussed and posted so much info on the VVS and its plight against the Luftwaffe..... Makes for some great reading....
     
  6. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    It's harder to destroy a fighter than it is a bomber. The VVS had a sky full of Luftwaffe bombers with few fighter escorts. The fighters being sent to the West for intercept duties.

    It makes for a simple target rich environment.
     
  7. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Here is the full (and long) list of Ivan Kozhedub's victories:

    Date Type
    6 July 1943 1 Ju 87
    7 July 1943 1 Ju 87
    9 July 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties)
    9 Aug 1943 1 Bf 109
    14 Aug 1943 2 Bf 109
    16 Aug 1943 1 Ju 87
    22 Aug 1943 1 Fw 190
    9 Sept 1943 1 Bf 109
    30 Sept 1943 1 Ju 87
    1 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87
    2 Oct 1943 3 Ju 87
    4 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
    5 Oct 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties)
    6 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
    10 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
    12 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109
    29 Oct 1943 1 He 111, 1 Ju 87
    16 Jan 1944 1 Bf 109
    30 Jan 1944 1 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109
    14 March 1944 1 Ju 87
    21 March 1944 1 Ju 87
    11 April 1944 1 Bf 109
    19 April 1944 1 He 111
    28 April 1944 1 Ju 87
    29 April 1944 2 Hs 129
    3 May 1944 1 Ju 87
    31 May 1944 1 Fw 190
    1 June 1944 1 Ju 87
    2 June 1944 1 Hs 129
    3 June 1944 3 Fw 190 (in 2 sorties)
    7 June 1944 1 Bf 109
    22 Sept 1944 2 Fw 190
    25 Sept 1944 1 Fw 190
    16 Jan 1945 1 Fw 190
    10 Feb 1945 1 Fw 190
    12 Feb 1945 3 Fw 190
    19 Feb 1945 1 Me 262
    11 March 1945 1 Fw 190
    18 March 1945 2 Fw 190
    22 March 1945 2 Fw 190
    23 March 1945 1 Fw 190
    17 April 1945 2 Fw 190

    39 Top of the line fighters, and 23 Bombers.........

    Kozhedub was one hell of a pilot dude.....
     
  8. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    I know. I'm talking about VVS pilots in general.
     
  9. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    If the RAF was on the offensive, it could be swamped with fighters- Russia has a large population so there would be a lot of reserves which Britain doesn't as much even if the colonies are included. The RAF might get worn down simply through attrition
     
  10. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    The VVS had nothing capable of fighting at the height the RAF would be operating at. Remember the RAF would also be operating at night with the NF Mosquito as escort.

    What could the VVS possibly put in the sky with any chance of detecting, attacking and destroying incoming RAF bombers?
     
  11. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Ummm.... At night???? Nothing........
     
  12. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    The Tu-2 and Pe-2 could probably converted into nightfighters but I don't know how good Russian in-plane radar was
     
  13. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Russian Radar :?: :shock:

    I don't think the Russians had any airborne radar systems in place until after WW2. See this link

    :http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_Radar_WWII.htm
     
  14. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    I didn't think so but I wasn't that sure
     
  15. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    i definately think this goes to the RAF, mostly for the reasons already outlined, they had no heavy bomber which they would need against us, and they were practically defenceless by night, and remember the RAF would proberly incluse all our colonies, so when you bring it canada and australia we're talking huge numbers...................
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Although I generally agree, I must add that Soviet propoganda was MUCH worse than the German one ! The less truthful German propoganda would actually become less and less as the war progressed, and it 'was' also many times pronounced that "Germany could actually lose the war!" (Very Unlike Soviet propoganda).

    Modern researchers have actually calculated that some "Supposed" russian aces with 20-30-40 kills claimed, didnt even make the 10 kills in reality ! :shock: All this by looking in German loss-records, wich btw were the most accurate of the war.

    Also remember that the German confirmation system was THE most effective and strict of WW2, and therefore MUCH more accurate than the Soviet system.

    Im sorry, but I doubt he got much more than half of his claimed kills.

    In Bravery they certainly were, in skill, no.

    They were THE boldest and most fanatic pilots ever to fly in WW2, and very brave aswell, I'll give them that.
     
  17. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

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    I agree that most Soviet information is iffy. However I belive the Pokryshkin and Kozhedub's scores are probably true. There are even some theories that Pokryshkin actually got MORE that 59 kills he was credited with. (Some believe he achieved around 70)
     
  18. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    I've heard this as well
     
  19. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    Plan_D:

    To the most extent i am with you here.

    The soviets never really bothered to move further with airborne electronics. They were way behind Germany, USA and UK in such department.

    They had plenty of pilots and planes to expend on the battlefields and also knew that in the west a numerically powerful ally (USAAF and RAF) was relieving them from critical pressure at their front by keeping thousands of enemy planes, pilots and ground personnel stucked elsewhere.

    Most impressive is the fact the soviets were not very interested even in ground radar stations and ground control.

    Do you recall the shuttle bombing missions carried out by the USAAF during 1944?

    The reports from most USAAF pilots and airmen on soviet airbases reported conditions were primitive. No radar. Virtually no air defence.

    During mid 1944, Ju88´s and He111s from several Kampfgeschwadern carried out a virtually unopposed night attack in a soviet airfield near Poltava destroying some 45 heavy bombers and about 20 escort fighters on the ground, the attack was fast, accurate and profitable. The Luftwaffe took NO losses in such attack exposing an extremely weak flank in the soviet military air force.

    What if the bulk of the Luftwaffe nachtjagdgeschwadern had been deployed in the east? :?:

    In view conditions would not be improved by the soviet ally, shuttle bombing missions were thus cancelled.
     
  20. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    cannot even be compard

    two different fronts with different tactics.
    ETO confined per se, Ost front wide open no protection, see for miles.

    German nf crews had a hard time as Soviet a/c was primitive, slow, cumbersome, and NO radar installed. a bit of a drag for long houred German pilots looking for targets. RAF provided plenty in the night skies over Germany. Definately a battle of wits end, which radar will be used and a counter to block it.

    RAF provided cunning and skill in flight both day and night. soviets tened to overwehlem in sheer masse which often times proved fatal including times till wars end. For the Soviets giving up hers ons was not crucial since mankind was petty and did not matter. Just destroy the enemy at whatever cost.
     
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