Was Operation Pedestal a greater Axis air attack than any faced by the USN in 1942?

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Those attack sorties all came in dribs and drabs, NOT the massive strikes the IJN mounted. Plus the Japanese were THE premiere naval attack and fighter pilots in 1942.
 
I am going to post a bunch more stuff on combat involving P-43 and P-66 but right now my temporary internet access is going to temporarily go away in order to alleviate some other issues I'm dealing with here, thanks to the damn outage. More to come!
 
Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
I am going to post a bunch more stuff on combat involving P-43 and P-66 but right now my temporary internet access is going to temporarily go away in order to alleviate some other issues I'm dealing with here, thanks to the damn outage. More to come!
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Ahah, I know where you live. The chainsaw story gave it away. Joe Baugher's site gives a clue about the P-66. They were all SOC in the US in 43, as I remember. I have wondered why they weren't given away. As I remember, those on the US were offered to RCAF and declined. They were not used as fighter trainers because of sudden stall conditions. Corrections welcome. The Pensacola bird is an SNC-! used as primary trainers. Curtiss-Wright made several versions of that airframe, one in a passerger config.
 
AZRailwhale said:
Those attack sorties all came in dribs and drabs, NOT the massive strikes the IJN mounted. Plus the Japanese were THE premiere naval attack and fighter pilots in 1942.
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You must be thinking of some other Operation Pedestal. The largest single strikes against the Operation Pedestal whilst under FAA protection and under discussion was on 12 Aug 1942:

Axis strike sorties on 11 and 12 Aug 1942.
Roskill (Shores)
11 Aug
36 (30 JU88 DBs + 6 HE111 TBs)

12 Aug
9:15 = ~20 ( 24 x Ju88)
12:15 = ~70 ( ~85 assorted S79, S84s, and Ju87s including 8 x CR42 DBs plus a large fighter escort)
18:35 = ~100 (61 including 24 x s79s, 29 x ju87, 8 x cr42 DBs + ~70 fighter escorts)

I don't recall if the IJN ever attacked a USN carrier TF with more strike sorties in a single raid than the above except on 19 June 1944. The JU88s were typically carrying 2000kg of bombs each and Ju87s 500 - 1000kg of bombs each vs 250kg bombs on IJN Vals.

Edit. The largest single strike directed towards a USN carrier TF in 1942 was on the morning of 26 Oct 1942 and consisted of 40 Vals, 36 Kates and 36 Zeros.
 
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CW-21 with single cockpit. The Trainers were two seaters and used smaller engines.
They were most definitely connected although I an not sure how much was truly interchangeable.
Trainers used 450hp engines? The CW-21s used the larger R-1820s but not the most powerful ones.
Guns were always in the fuselage (up to four). Interesting but perhaps of limited growth.

It dates back to 1935 and even the 2nd one built only had a 145hp engine.
 

Well as I previously noted, the P-40E was probably the nadir of that type as well (depending in part on the engine boost settings they were using). Regardless, we work with the data available, not the data we wish to see.
 

That statement still doesn't confirm that the P-43s saw combat. They could easily have been destroyed on the ground by the bombers.

I'm not trying to be an arse about this but I've not seen a single record of any US pilot actually engaged in combat while flying a P-43 or P-66. Again, not saying it didn't happen but I've yet to find an example. If the types were used, I'd expect there to be at least some mention along the lines of "Conducted multiple patrols during the month of September but never engaged the enemy." However, there's virtually nothing. Looking forward to what you uncover about identified combats.

All that said, the fact that the P-43s were "recently delivered" in late-October 1942 is, itself, intriguing because that's the very month it was supposedly withdrawn from front-line service.
 
Joe Baugher's website credits a P-43A-1 (I think) from the 23rd Fighter Group's 76th Fighter Squadron - flown by Captain Jeffrey Wellborn - as having the only official victory credited to a USAAF P-43. ". . . when returning from a high altitude reconnaissance flight over Burma, he encountered a Japanese Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah" twin engine, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft and shot it down."

The date of the action is not listed, but the above may give a starting point for more research.

"Republic P-43 Lancer"
 

There is a drawing of a P-43 lancer from 76 Sqn, 23rd FG in the Carl Molesworth Osprey book on the 23rd FG, which says "Late 1942". This one:



Unfortunately Molesworth does not have a TO&E listing in the book that I can find. There are some mentions in the Ki-43 book though, and I think a couple more in Shores. Aircraft types are not in the indexes, alas, so I have to go page by page.
 
So what the Osprey Ki-43 aces book has is mostly totals for specific time periods, not broken down by individual squadron, though he does mention two specific Chinese units that got into action with P-66 (unfortunately they didn't do well).

This is all in the China section.

Page 65 - "On the 23rd [I think August 1943*], Ki-43s of the 25th and 33rd Sentais escorted Ki-21s of the 58th Sentai to the Kuomintang capital of Chongquing. The Chinese early warning set up (both radar and ground observers) was effective as usual, and eight Republic P-43s, ten P-40s and eleven Vultee P-66s of the CAF's 4th Air batallion took off to lay an ambush.

The air battle began long before the raiding force reached its target. The CAF claimed two Ki-21s, and indeed one of 58th Sentai's machines failed to return. But the 25th Sentai claimed two P-43s and three probables, plus a P-40 and another unidentified fighter. According to records, one P-40 or P-43 pilot was killed and another bailed out. Two P-66s were also missing. The 33rd Sntai claimed no aerial victories and all of its Ki-43s returned home safely.

* this guy has an aversion to using full dates so it's very difficult for me to tell sometimes what month and year he is talking about

He then says that during Summer operations between 23 July to 6 October [I think 1943] JAAF claimed 113 victories and lost 49 aircraft, including 25 fighters and 14 bombers. USAAF lost 30 aircraft during the same period. 25th Sentai claimed 54 victories, at a cost of 8 pilots. He says "According to both JAAF and Allied records" actual Allied losses were 6 x B-24, 2 x P-40, 2 x P-43, 1 x P-38, and 1 x P-66.

Then he notes that "...on 21 November when it [25th Sentai] escorted nine Ki-48s in a raid on the CAF base at Enshi. The 11th Air battalion took off to defend the airfield, and it jumped the 21 JAAF machines from above and behind. The CAF pilots claimed four victories, but in the process lost three P-66s and their pilots. The 25th Sentai claimed eight victories, and all the Ki-43s and Ki-48s returned home safely."

He then notes another list of losses, between 2 Nov 1942 and 28 Jan 1944, Allies in the area of 25th Sentai lost 23 aircraft - 12 x P-40s, 1 x P-43, 2 x B-24s, 7 x P-38s, and 1 x P-66.

On page 71 he gives another overlapping summary , noting that between 23 July 1942 and 25 July 1944, 25th Sentai shot down 44 aircraft: 18 x P-40s, 11 x P-38s, 6 x B-24s, 4 x P-66, 3 x P-51, and 2 x P-43s. 25th Sentai was also involved in combination with other units, with shooting down a further 25 x P-40s, 5 x B-24s, 5 x P-38s, 2 x P-51s, 1 x P-43, and 1 x P-66.

It should be noted that up to this point the vast majority of fighter engagements are with P-40s, and the P-51s in this area are both P-51A and P-51Bs, some with the 76th FS, 23rd FG.

To wit he also notes that in this same period (23 July 1942 - 25 July 1944), 25th Sentai lost 48 pilots, of whom he says 23 were killed by P-40 plots, 8 by either P-40 or P-51 pilots, 2 to P-38 pilots, 1 to either a P-38 or a P-51, one to defensive gunners from a B-25, one to a B-24, and one to flak. Two were killed on the ground by bombs and six in flying accidents.

It's hard to be certain without a clear and complete TO&E which I'm still looking for but it seems like all of the P-66 were flown by CAF units, some of the P-43s were flown by the USAAF units. All of the P-51A, P-51B, P-38F ,G and H were flown by USAAF pilots. The P-40 units were also mostly USAAF though CAF had at least two squadrons flying P-40s as well.
 
I found a pretty complete and detailed history of P-43s in China here



In summary, it seems like both the US 14th Air Force CATF, and Chinese Air Force had a few P-43s at any one time during late the first half of 1943, which were used in offensive raids, armed recon (in which they sometimes got into action and shot down enemy aircraft) and interception / base defense action, the US were still using P-43s well into 1943. These often accompanied missions by P-40s, with up to four P-43s flying with a squadron of P-40s.

The Chinese still had P-43s and P-66s in significant numbers by 1944. In Dec 1943, CAF had 19 x P-40s, 22 x P-43s, 53 P-66s, and 14 A-29s (Hudsons). They still had 20 P-43s in May 1944 though it's not clear if they were still flying by then. In combat CAF was flying as many as ten P-43s at a time.

What follows are some excerpts:


23rd FG did get into action with the P-43s. Here are the first to engagements:

On August 17th [1942] the P-43 entered combat for the first time. The 75th Fighter Squadron (FS) was at Kweilin en route to its new base at Changyi when a Japanese intruder was reported by the warning net. Two P-40s and two P-43s scrambled. The P-40s were unable to intercept but both P-43s made contact. Lt. Phillip B. O'Connell got within range only to have his guns jam and then his radio fail. Lt. Burrell Barnum then followed the speedy Japanese craft in a lengthy chase involving climbs, dives and straight runs. Barnum fired from long range but never got close enough to inflict serious damage. Barnum reported the "I-45" to be equal in speed to the P-43 at 20,000 feet [50]. Barnum most likely encountered a Type 100 Headquarters reconnaissance plane of the 18th Independent Squadron, an airplane credited with a maximum speed of 375 mph. at 19,000 feet [51].

The P-43's next air combat came on September 3rd when Lt. Martin Cluck of the 75th aborted a reconnaissance mission with mechanical trouble. At low altitude near base attacking Japanese fighters jumped him and riddled his P-43. Cluck landed safely and escaped from his aircraft but the P-43 was destroyed by strafing. A P-40 was also destroyed on the ground. The 24th FR and 10th Squadron claimed ten aircraft destroyed on the ground [52].

He notes P-43s and P-66 in CAF units got into action in October:

"...a flurry of combat activity that began on October 24th when two P-43s flying from Nancheng claimed a Japanese reconnaissance plane [54]. Formations of P-66s of the 3rd Group flying from Peishiyi attempted similar interceptions on the 25th, 26th and 27th without success [55].

On October 27th no less than twelve P-43s flying from Taipingsu escorted nine A-29s [I believe these are Lockheed Hudsons] in a raid on Yungcheng in Shansi, Province. One aircraft was claimed destroyed on the ground without loss to the Chinese [56]. P-66s flew another mission in November. A-29s flew two additional missions in November on one of which they were joined by old SB bombers. An A-29 and three SBs were lost in bad weather [57]. This mission on November 27th was the C.A.F.'s last of 1942. The C.A.F. filled the rest of 1942 with training as additional P-66s were received and P-40Es arrived to supplement the P-43s of the 4th Group."

Going back to the 23rd FG / CATF:

On September 12th Major Frank Schiel, commander of the 74th FS, flew a notable mission. This was a reconnaissance flown from Kunming to Hanoi. Three enemy fighters rose to intercept but Schiel avoided them and returned with information that led to a successful bombing mission a few days later. Schiel was awarded the Silver Star for this P-43 mission.

In late November 1942 F-4s (the reconnaissance version of the P-38 fighter) arrived in China and gradually took over the photo reconnaissance mission. Both P-40s and P-43s continued to fly visual reconnaissance missions as well. P-43s occasionally flew photo missions with a makeshift camera arrangement.

P-43s performed in the fighter role as ground strafers, interceptors, and along with P-40s as bomber escorts. Because of their small numbers and distribution among the squadrons seldom did more than one or two P-43s fly on any given mission. An exception occurred on December 14th when four P-43s joined fourteen P-40s in an escort mission to Hanoi covering the P-40s in a successful combat. On December 30th three P-43s gave top cover to six P-40s on a mission to Lashio, Burma, enabling the P-40s to claim one of six Japanese fighters encountered.

Then back to the CAF in 1943:

The C.A.F. celebrated New Year's Day by flying its first combat mission with three of its new P-40Es, an uneventful patrol searching for a Japanese reconnaissance plane [58]. On the 10th ten P-43s joined five P-40s in attacking Kingmen airdrome and targets of opportunity. Two P-40s were lost to ground fire [59]. Two days later two P-43s flew a reconnaissance mission along the west bank of the Han River. Near Itu (southeast of Ichang) the P-43s met two "Zeros" claiming one shot down in flames and one badly damaged [60].
As of the end of January 1943 the C.A.F. had three groups of bombers but only one squadron of A-29s and one squadron of SBs were rated combat capable. Its four fighter groups were deployed to defend Chengtu and the wartime capital of Chungking. Three groups were equipped with a mix of P-66s and I-153s but only two squadrons in each group were considered combat capable. The 4th Group at Taipingsu equipped with P-40s and P-43s was the sole group with four squadrons (21st - 24th) rated combat capable. It alone had an offensive mission ("attack enemy aircraft.active over the upper Yangtze") in addition to a defensive mission [61]. An American technical representative who spent three months with the C.A.F. estimated that as of February 1, 1943, the C.A.F.'s serviceable American equipment amounted to: nine A-29s, forty-five P-66s, 18 P-43s and 18-20 P-40s [62].

This one is in "early 1943", again CAF:

"The Japanese were presented an opportunity when they discovered C.A.F. aircraft at Liangshan. The Headquarters of the 4th Group had moved to Chungking in mid-February but P-43s of the 22nd Squadron were based at Liangshan. On February 24th fifteen Type 1 fighters of the 25th FR escorted twelve twin-engine light bombers of the 16th FR to attack Liangshan. The 22nd Squadron scrambled four P-43s under its squadron commander Wang Tejian. The Japanese reported encountering three P-43s and claimed one shot down. The Chinese records confirm this."

Back to 23rd FG:

"For the American P-43s the New Year began with a routine weather reconnaissance flight to Schwebo in Burma by a single P-43 of the 76th FS. A similar mission to Bhamo on January 2nd proved anything but routine. Capt. Jeffrey O. Wellborn was on his return flight when he encountered an "I-45." The Japanese aircraft was above the P-43 but Wellborn climbed on to its tail without being detected. Wellborn's first burst took the Japanese by surprise. The Japanese aircraft then attempted to escape by diving but Wellborn followed and shot the aircraft down in flames. Like Barnum in the P-43's first combat the previous August, Wellborn probably encountered a Japanese reconnaissance plane rather than an I-45 (Japanese designation, Type 2 two-seat fighter or Ki 45). It was quite a start to the New Year for the P-43 and Wellborn's only aerial victory."

This is March 31 1943, US 23rd FG:

"The following day fourteen P-40K-1s of the 75th FS were joined by one P-43 (Capt. Groseclose) in intercepting twelve Japanese fighters of the 1st FB. The Americans held an altitude advantage as well as a numerical advantage and four Japanese fighters went down. One P-40K was shot down and another damaged. Two of the Japanese fighters were new Type 2 (Ki 44) fighters flying with the 33rd FR.

On April 8th P-43s and P-40Ks were involved in two joint missions. The 74th FS sent one aircraft of each type on a reconnaissance from Yunnan-yi to Schwebo in Burma. The 16th FS scrambled one of each in an attempted interception over Kweilin. These as well as many other examples show that combining these aircraft with differing characteristics could prove more symbiotic than disruptive."

May 1943, CAF 4th Group:

"The 4th Group went into action on May 19th. Eight P-40Es and four P-43s escorted A-29s over the battle area. The group's deputy commander Xu Baoyun, flying a P-40E, was shot down and crashed in flames, hit by anti-aircraft fire according to Chinese reports [72].

On May 31st nine P-43s escorted five A-29s to attack the ferry crossing between Ichang and Itu. In doing so they missed out on some of the most intense action of the campaign. Lt. Col. John Alison and two U.S.A.A.F. wingmen led seven 4th Group P-40s escorting nine B-24s to Ichang. This was Alison's last mission in China and the ace hoped to add to his record of kills. Instead his P-40 was badly shot up by Capt. Ohtsubo Yasuto, leader of the 1st Chutai (squadron) of the 33rd FR. Alison's life was saved by Lt. Tsang Hsu-Lan of the 4th Group who shot down Ohtsubo. Alison was able to identify "Bulldog" Tsang by the number "2304" on his P-40. Tsang was awarded the American Silver Star as well as China's highest decoration [76]."

Here proving, I'd say, some of these Chinese pilots were pretty good..
 
So the P-43s and the P-66s clearly did see combat, in fact the P-43 seems to have done fairly well and played a useful role, so that the 23rd FG (and Chennault) wanted to keep them even though the USAAF wanted to shut them down, because they didn't have self sealing fuel tanks (I'll come back to that). The P-66 only flew with the Chinese units, the P-43 flew with both US and Chinese units, US through mid 1943 Chinese to some time in 1944.

Circling back to the initial point, there were many fighter types that flew against the Japanese in the CBI. And we can look at the outcomes for different types.

I will concede that the P-66 seems to have only flown with the CAF, and the P-43 flew in such small numbers that you can argue that it can't be fairly evaluated.

But lets look at the others which did fight in some numbers -

P-40 USAAF and CAF
P-51A USAAF
P-38 USAAF
P-47 USAAF
P-51B/C/D USAAF
Hurricane I RAF
Hurricane IIb RAF
Hurricane IIc RAF
Mohawk IV RAF
Spitfire V RAF
Spitfire VIII RAF
Thunderbolt RAF

(I'm not including fighter-bomber types like the Hurri IID or A-36, or recon types like the F-4 and Mosquito)

Of those, if you look at the operational history for example in Shores, I think you will see, and I am certain that I can prove the Hurricanes usually got the worst of it in encounters with the Ki-43, Ki-44 and other Japanese fighters, most of the time. Maybe one out of four, or one out of five times they came out ahead or broke even, but at least half the time they lost more than they actually shot down, sometimes considerably more.

Conversely, it is also readily apparent that the P-40 units, especially the USAAF ones, usually got the better of the Ki-43 and went about even with the Ki-44 (even though the latter alarmed US pilots and commanders) and even with the Ki-84. The Japanese themselves noted that in regions where they encountered P-40s, the P-40s accounted for most of their losses, and this continued into 1944.

The P-51A seems to have done relatively poorly against the Ki-43, as did the P-38 in this Theater (in notable contrast to New Guinea and the Solomons). The P-47s seem to have done about middling, though they didn't get in as much combat. I don't think they did notably better than the P-40 units did.

The Mohawk IV, aka P-36 / Hawk 75, which equipped two squadrons of the RAF, did surprisingly well in this Theater, I would say (really just guessing so far, though I'll confirm this in more detail later) they did about even against the Ki-43. This despite not having self sealing fuel tanks and maybe only a minimum of armor (I gather they welded an armor plate behind the pilot seat). I haven't counted every encounter but I'll go through Shores carefully to verify this.
The Spitfire V did about equal with the Ki-43 as far as i can tell (a closer reading of Shores Vol III will help verify this)
The Spitfire VIII did very well against the Ki-43 and all other Japanese types, and caused considerable alarm among Japanese units.
The P-51B/C/D also did well against the Ki-43 and other Japanese fighters, and like the Spit VIII, caused consternation among Japanese pilots.

Both the P-51B/C/D and Spit VIII arrived pretty late and in relatively small numbers though, and both still took losses to Ki-43s and other Japanese types. RAF pilots of Spit VIII noted that they had to maintain strict 'hit and run' tactics to prevail over the Ki-43.


According to US records, P-40 pilots claimed 973 enemy aircraft in the CBI. P-51 units claimed 345 (they don't distinguish between Merlin and Allison P-51s, but I can promise you most of these are the Merlin type), P-38 pilots claimed 157 victories in the CBI, P-47 pilots claimed 16, and P-43 pilots claimed 3. I don't have total claims numbers for RAF units in this Theater but if anyone does that would be very interesting to see.

I was pretty surprised by the problems with the P-51A and it emerged in previous discussions on this forum that the rigging of the ailerons was probably the culprit, contributing to a limited roll rate, and this was corrected in the P-51B and later types. If they had adjusted this earlier in the Allison engined type, it might have been a much more effective figther.

The P-38 problems in the CBI may have had to do with often fighting at lower altitude, which was not ideal for that type.

Both the P-51A and the P-38 also had long range, which was an asset in Theater. In his conclusions for Volume III of Bloody Shambles, Shores actually credits them for the USAAF achieving air superiority in some areas, which I don't think is accurate, but it's worth noting. He also bemoans the lack of a capable long range fighter for the RAF.

The Mohwak is a particularly interesting example because they flew side by side with Hurricane units, and on paper would seem to be inferior aircraft, but seemed to have better outcomes. One of the two Mohawk units in India, 5 Sqn RAF, transitioned to Hurricane IIs in June 1943, and then to Thunderbolt Mk I and II (P-47) in May 1945, by which time the JAAF was pretty much gone. I think looking carefully at Shores, it will be enlightening to see how combat outcomes changed before and after conversion from Mohawk to Hurricane. My understanding is that the reason for the conversion was simply due to running out of Mohawks, as none were being made since 1940 I believe. The Mohawk IVs from 5 Sqn were given to 155 Sqn RAF, which continued to fly Mohawks until January 1944 (!!), when they were replaced with Spitfires.

Both RAF and Japanese pilots noted that the Mohawk IV could either out turn, or at least "turn with" the Ki-43, which may have been part of the reason for it's comparative success.

I suspect the problems with the Hurricane were three fold:

1) Adjustment to the Tropics - namely the Vokes filter, but also apparently some overheating issues which were mentioned. I think this may explain why Hurricanes seemed to do a bit better flying out of England than in the Mediterranean and CBI
2) Roll rate. The Hurricane just didn't roll that well, especially at higher speeds, and roll was really important to counteract the turning advantage in the Pacific, and for performing 'escape maneuvers'.
3) Speed, including both level and dive speed. This ties in with 1) adaptation to the Tropics. On paper the Hurricane looks a bit faster than a Ki-43 or an A6M2. In the war though, they did not seem to be able to outrun them. In part I believe this is due to the Vokes filter, at least during the first couple of years. I'm not clear on precisely when this was replaced, but it was a major problem due to drag, weight, and constrained aspiration for the engine. The Hurricane could reach a high dive speed but it's initial dive acceleration seemed to be slow, probably due to the big, draggy wings.


It is somewhat incredible to me that the Hurricane lasted as long as it did, as they were still equipping six squadrons in Dec 1944 (not counting IAF) and two squadrons (28 and 45 RAF) in June 1945. This in effect seems to have been a triumph of conservative British officers in India who were reluctant to replace the Hurricane, esepcailly with foreign types.
 
The Chinese Air Force also operated the P-26 and as an interesting footnote: in August 1937, a Japanese strike force of Aichi D1A1s from the Kaga happened across a flight of Curtiss A-12 Shrikes, who were enroute to attack Japanese positions.
A dogfight ensued and two Aichis were shot down, a third was badly damaged but managed to return to Kaga with a dead crewman.
No A-17s were downed in the brawl.
 
The Hurricane IV was still the RAF fighter defence of Cyprus in 1946 IIRC.
 
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