Was Operation Pedestal a greater Axis air attack than any faced by the USN in 1942? (1 Viewer)

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

That's a very interesting detail about the beacons.

 

[Shortround6]

The slightly newer B5N was definitely better.

This is part of the problem with evaluating some of these planes.
Sometimes it was only one to two years separating generations of thought even if not actual hardware

The TBD was ordered on the 30th of June 1934 and first flew 15 April 1935.
They played with it for a while before ordering the production version so The production version didn't show up until Aug 1937 but production stopped in 1939.

The Slighter newer B5N was designed to a 1935 specification and first flew in Jan 1937, over a 1 1/2 later. The Japanese caught up in timing with first production in Dec 1937.

However that is not the end of the story. There was not TBD-2 or TBD-1A or whatever you like to call a newer version. In 1939 the USN with a rather good crystal ball (cloudy spot was over the MK 13 torpedo) figured they had time to order a new torpedo bomber with all the improvements that 4-5 years had introduced. They put out the specs for what would wind up being the TBF.

The Japanese on the other had OK'd Nakajima to go forward with an "improved version" with the 14 cylinder Sakae engine instead of the 770-840hp Hikari 9 cylinder. Production versions appeared in early 1940. It was these B5N2s that went to war in Dec 1941.
By Aug/Sept of 1942 TBFs had replaced TBDs in every torpedo bomber squadron in the US Navy.

Sometimes a plane being offset in timing by even a year can make a big difference.
Yokosuka B4Y

first flew in 1935 with a liquid cooled in V-12 and in 1936 with air cooled radials, so it was behind the TBD.
At the other end the Nakajima B6N was built to a 1939 Requirement (much like the TBF) but the two prototype completed in early 1941 were not ready to leave the nest.
The B6N would not see service until the 2nd half of 1943, over a year after the TBF.

It has been explained many times that the Skua showed up about 1 year late and it never got a real MK II version. They built 2 prototypes with Mercury engines and then Blackburn was told to use the Perseus engine as all Mercury's were wanted for the Blenheim program, or so the story goes. Power was nearly identical. Skua in 1940 was well beyond the RNs expected expiration date, but the replacements were running later than the Skua.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Here are the initial II. Fliegerkorps orders from 12 August 1942 (my rough translation):

"Deployment Orders for 12.8.42 (forwarded by telephone)
1) Enemy situation: Enemy group early on 12 June about 7° East - to be assumed on Sicily Strait. Details to be provided by Ic [intelligence officer].
2) From early on 12 August, the Korps, in cooperation with the Italian air commands of Sardinia and Sicily, will attack the supply ships with the aim of destroying them before they reach Malta. Deployment of wave upon wave under escort of J.G. 53 from Elmas and Pantelleria.
3) Italian air force will attack the enemy group from Sardinia, Sicily and Pantelleria with fighter, torpedo, Stuka and Jabo forces wave upon wave under Italian fighter protection.
Aufklärungsgruppe 122 (with subordinate Ju 88s of 1.(F)/122 and Kampfgruppe 606).
Reconnaissance between African coast and 39° in two waves (06.30 from 8° and 12° to the west). Alerting of and searching for enemy convoys.
5) L.G. 1: 1st wave from 07.30 on standby position at Cap Carbonara. On receipt of order to attack by radio (issued by Korps to Gerbini command post) I./J.G. 77 to be picked up at 4,000 to 5000 metres above Elmas. After attack return to Gerbini.
6) K.G. 54 and K.G. 77: Serviceable aircraft at one-hour readiness from 06.30. Further serviceable aircraft are to be placed at the same readiness. Orders for further waves will be issued in due course."

And here are the resulting individual II. Fliegerkorps missions that day:

- 8 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 11 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 3 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 15 Ju 88s attacked convoy, Hurricanes encountered
- 19 Ju 88s attacked convoy, made multiple claims against shipping, Hurricanes encountered
- 4 Bf 109s escort
- 2 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 7 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 9 Ju 88s attacked convoy
- 7 He 111s attacked convoy
- 20 Ju 87 attacked convoy
- 21 Bf 109s escort
- various Ju 88 reconnaissance sorties

Some of the units involved included Aufklärungsgruppe 122 (Ju 88s), I. and II./Lehrgeschwader 1 (Ju 88s), I./Kampfgeschwader 54 (Ju 88s), Kampfgeschwader 77 (Ju 88s), Kampfgruppe 806 (Ju 88s), Kampfgruppe 606 (Ju 88s), I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 3 (Ju 87s), I./Jagdgeschwader 77 (Bf 109s), and II./Jagdgeschwader 53 (Bf 109s).

And for those who can read German, here is the war diary of I./Kampfgeschwader 54 for 12 August 1942

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[RCAFson]

Operation HARPOON: The convoy to Malta before PEDESTAL.

HMS Eagle with 16 SH1B and 4 Fulmar II
HMS Argus with 2 Fulmar II and 12 Swordfish (ASW)

On June 14 1942 approximately 120 RAI and Luftwaffe attack sorties with ~60+ escort fighters, were thrown against the convoy.

FAA fighters claimed 17 kills and lost 3 SHs and 4 Fulmars. Naval gunners claimed ~8 AA kills.

Axis aircraft losses were 35, and at least 3/4 were incurred over the convoy when it was out of range of Malta based fighter cover.

Malta, The Spitfire Year 1942 (Shores, et all) confirms about 15 of the FAA fighter claims.

 

[elbmc1969]

One of the interesting bits from Lundstrom was that the Wildcat pilots seriously overclaimed Japanese land-based bombers during the carrier raids before Midway. However, when aircraft that didn't make it back to base, crashed during landing due to damage, or were simply operational losses are counted, the total is almost exactly the same as the claims of the USN pilots.

It makes some of the numbers above a little more sensible. After all, if the FAA fighters claimed 17 and AAA claimed 8, that's a total of 25. We're told that no more than 8 of the 35 total losses were from Malta-based fighter cover. But 25+8 only equals 33 ...

I suspect that some of the "I shot it down!" claims were wrong in the immediate, confirmable sense, but that the damaged aircraft went down somewhere on the hundred-mile flight home.

 

[RCAFson]

One of the interesting bits from Lundstrom was that the Wildcat pilots seriously overclaimed Japanese land-based bombers during the carrier raids before Midway. However, when aircraft that didn't make it back to base, crashed during landing due to damage, or were simply operational losses are counted, the total is almost exactly the same as the claims of the USN pilots.

It makes some of the numbers above a little more sensible. After all, if the FAA fighters claimed 17 and AAA claimed 8, that's a total of 25. We're told that no more than 8 of the 35 total losses were from Malta-based fighter cover. But 25+8 only equals 33 ...

I suspect that some of the "I shot it down!" claims were wrong in the immediate, confirmable sense, but that the damaged aircraft went down somewhere on the hundred-mile flight home.

I basically summarized the data from Malta, the Spitfire Year 1942, without trying to be too specific. But yes, many aircraft crashed well away from the convoy.

The Sea Hurricane IB was the main FAA carrier fighter in three epic carrier battles:

HARPOON (June 1942)
PEDESTAL (Aug 1942)
PQ18 (Sept 1942)

Where a comparatively small number of SH1Bs (and one SH1A over PQ18 after Avenger departed) faced over 400 Axis strike sorties and shot down ~40 Axis aircraft.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Ok so I've been compiling data, as promised.

Here is the quite gripping and highly dramatic story of Pedestal as best I can determine:

Pedestal
Entire convoy duration – 3-15 August

Operation Bellows (interesting to note – they put a constant speed propeller on the Spitfires for carrier takeoff.

Aug 11
Eagle Sunk (but launches Spitfires) losing 16 naval fighters
At dusk attack detected 50 nm
Recon Ju 88 flying too high for Sea Hurricanes to catch
27 x Ju 88 and 3 x He 111
4 X SH CAP, 19 x SH launched to intercept.
2 Ju 88s shot down by AAA. Some British fighters damaged by friendly fire.
(After Eagle sunk, Italian Submarine Dagabur rammed by HMS Wolverine and sunk with all hands!)

Aug 12
First Raid
Launched from Sardinia when 200 nm from convoy
Detected at 65 nm
19 x Ju 88 with 16 x Bf 109
8 x Sea Hurricanes CAP, + 11 SH and 4 Fulmars launched.
Intercepted at 25 nm
2 FAA fighters lost. Only 4 Ju 88s bomb the convoy, but all miss.

Second Raid
FAA carrier force now consists of 51 fighters
Detected?
98 Axis bombers (SM 79 and Ju 88) with 40 fighters
From Sardinia (Italians), came in four waves starting at noon
First Wave
10 SM.84 with motobomba FFF torpedoes, escorted by 14 MC 202 (no hits)
Second Wave
37 Ju 88 (KG 55 and &&) with 21 x Bf 109 and ECCM.
Evaded four Fulmars. Hit and damaged Deucalion.
Third Wave
21 SM.79 escorted by 12 x Re 2001 fighters (no hits)
Fourth Wave
2 Re 2001 G/V, 1 Cant Z.1007 + 1 Radio Controlled SM.79 as a flying bomb, escorted by 2 x G.50
Two hits! Both hit Victorious (Carrier) but little damage (small antipersonnel bombs)

CAP 4 SH and 2 Fulmar. Launched 6 SH and 4 Fulmar.

Sunderland flying boat drove off submarine Brin and hit and damaged Giada but then got shot down.

Third Raid
'Detected Early'
Initially intercepted by Martlets at 30nm
Attack targeting covering force
CAP was 3 x Martlet, 12 SH, 6 Fulmars, more were launched.

Total force 14 x SM 79 and 18 x Ju 88, 12 x Italian Ju 87, 40 fighters

First Wave
8x CR 42 fb and 9 Sm.79 and escorted by 9 x Re 2001
(4 x Ju 87s lacked long range fuel tanks and no torpedoes for 6 x SM.84)
Recon SM.79 shot down by Fulmars but Cant.Z1007 evaded.
Engaged with MC.202 and Bf 109s
1 Stuka shot down by Sea Hurricane, near miss on Rodney with 500 kg bomb from Ju 87,
HMS Indominatble (carrier) attacked by 12 Ju 87 and hit twice, knocked out of action.
12 x SM 79 dropped torpedoes. HMS Foresight (destroyer) hit / wrecked

Second Wave
12 x SM.79 and 28 x Ju 87
2 x Ju 87 shot down
(no hits)
< Axis aircraft strafed by Beaufighters after landing at Pantelleria, 2 x SM.79 and 1 x SM.84 >

Submarine Emo launched torpedoes and missed. Submarine Cobalto rammed by HMS Ithuriel and sunk (Ithuriel badly damaged and had to go back to GIbaralar)

8 x SH, 3 x Martlet, 10 x Fulmars remaining – Indomitable inoperable.
4 x Fulmars left 1 shot down one badly damaged by Bf 109 (I think on Victorious?)

Italian Submarines Dessie and Axum hit Nigeria, Cairo and Ohio. Nigeria goes back to Gibraltar.

Night Raid
30 x Ju 88, 7 x He 111, 6 x Bf 110 detected at 20:36 (twilight)
6 x Beaufighters (248 Sqn) also detected and fired on by accident
Brisbane Star, Clan Ferguson, Kenya, Rochester Castle, Empire Hope hit (some by submarines). Ferguson and Empire Hope sink.

Night time torpedo boat attacks sink 5 ships: 2 hits on Manchester, which is scuttled, Wairangi, Almeria Lykes, Santa Elisa, Glenorchy all sink

Aug 13
Italian surface fleet moves out. British Sub Unbroken attacks, hitting several (3-4?) ships

First Raid
26 x Ju 88
Ohio near miss, Waimarama hit and blows up (destroyed) damaging Melbourne Star

Second Raid
16 x Ju 87, 8 x Bf 109F, 8 x Bf 110
Attacked by Beaufighters and Spitfires
2 x Ju 87 1 x Bf 109F shot down, 1 Beaufighter shot down

Third Raid
8 x Italian Ju 87, 10 MC 202
Attacked by Spitfires: 1 x Ju 87 shot down but crashes into Ohio. 1 more Ju 87 shot down.
Rochester damaged by near miss
1 Spitfire shot down by MC.202 or friendly AAA
Dorset hit by Stukas and abandoned

Fourth Raid
5 x SM.79 attack
Port Chalmers was hit but torpedo didn't detonate.
1 x SM.79 shot down by Spitfire

(Afternoon)

Fifth Raid
14 x Ju 87 attack
Dorset sunk

18 x Ju 88 attack – turn back when intercepted by Spitfires

Sixth Raid
4 x SM.79 attack
Brisbane Star and Ledburry attacked. Brisbane Star hit but torpedoes duds.
2 x SM.79 shot down by Ledburry AAA

Seventh Raid
35 x Ju 88, 13 Ju 87 attack "Force X" (warships)
Near miss on Kenya, 1 x Ju 88 and 1 x Ju 87 shot down by AAA

Eighth Raid
15 CANT.Z1007, 20 SM.79 and SM.84
(no hits)
Foresight scuttled before reaching Gibraltar

14 -15 August
Heavy Spitfire CAP as ships unloaded.
"20 Bombers" attack Ohio, which is hit again. Sinks in harbor after the last cargo is unloaded.

Total losses during Aug 11-12
18 Axis aircraft lost to fighters and AAA
7 Allied aircraft shot down (3 x Sea Huricanes, 3 x Fulmar, 1 x Martlet)

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

here is Coral Sea

Coral Sea
4-8 May 1942
US Task Force 17

Order of battle here
US Navy carrier 133 (38 x F4F, 70 x SBD, 25 x TBD)
US Navy seaplane (12 x PBY)
US Army (17 x B-17s at Townsville)
(Many more USAAF planes at Port Morseby and Darwin, not really in the battle)
IJN carrier: 155 (56 A6M, 42 D3A, 39 B5N) + Shoho light carrier 18 (8 x A6M, 4 x A5M, 6 x B5N)

IJN seaplanes 12 H6K flying boats, 9 A6M2-N 'Rufe' seaplane fighters, 12 light seaplanes
IJN land based: 66 "25th Air Flotilla"
42 bombers and 24 fighters (25 x G3M bombers, 17 G4M bombers, 18 x A6M, 6 x A5M -Tainan Air Group at Lae and Rabaul)

7 May
12 x B5N, 3 x G4M and 4 x H6K recon planes searching
10 x SBD searching (+B-17s an PBYS?)
(both sides recon ships miss the main carrier forces of the other)

Strikes 7 May Morning
IJN strike 78 aircraft (18 x A6M, 36 x D3A, 24 x B5N)
09:15 – 36 x D3A strike Neosho and Sims, fighters and return to CV. 1 D3A shot down by AAA
USN strike 93 aircraft (18 x F4F, 53 x SBD, 22 x TBD)
10:40 – strike Shoho 13 bomb hits by SBD, 2 torpedo hits* 3 x SBD lost to CAP or AAA

Strikes 7 May Afternoon
Invasion fleet bombed by 8 x B-17 (no hits)
19 x G3M with bombs and 12 G4M with torpedos attack TF 17.3 (Cruisers - John Crace Aus)
(no hits, 4 x G4M lost)
3 x B-17s accidentally bomb TF.17 (no hits!)

8 May
7 x B5N IJN Carrier planes plus 4 x G4M and 3 x H6K fly search patterns.
13 x SBD are sent out on recon.
Both sides spot each other's carriers around 08:20

Strikes 8 May
09: 15 IJN launches strike with 69 planes (18 x A6M 33 x D3A, 18 x B5N)
09:25 USN launches two strikes with 75 planes total (6 x F4F, 24 x SBD, 9 x TBD from Yorktown, 9 x F4F, 15 x SBD, 12 x TBD from Lexington)

First USN strike
run into CAP of 16 x A6M and attack at 10:57. SBDs hit Shokaku with 2 x 1,000 lb bombs.
2 x SBD and 2 x A6M shot down.

Second USN strike
attack at 11:30. CAP 13 x A6M Two SBDs bomb Shokaku hitting with 1 SBD. 2 attack Zuikaku missing. Other SBDs unable to find Japanese carriers.
3 x F4F shot down by CAP. Shokaku withdraws.

First IJN Strike
10:55 detected at 68 nm
9 F4F sent to intercept, only 3 reach Japanese strike. SBDs set as emergency fighters.
F4F (1) and SBDs (3) shot down 4 B5N. 4 SBDs shot down by A6M.
11:13 14 x B5N attack Lexington and 4 attack Yorktown. Lexington hit with 2 torpedoes.
4 x B5N shot down by AAA

33 x D3A attack Lexington and Yorktown. 4 x F4F CAP intercept, 2 x F4F break through and disrupt one attack. Lexington hit with 2 bombs.Yorktown hit with 1 bomb.
2 x D3A lost
Second air battle as strike aircraft encounter each other: 3 x SBD and 3 x F4F shot down, 3 x B5N, 1 x D3A and 1 x A6M lost (some were shot down by SBDs).
During recovery, more aircraft are lost:
5 x SBD, 2 x TBD, 1 x F4F lost or written off
5 x A6M, 9 x D3A, 6 x B5N lost or written off

Losses:
69 US aircraft
69-97 Japanese aircraft
* These were the older type torpedoes that still partly worked

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Here is Midway:

Midway
4 June 1942

Order of battle here
US Land 122 (21 multi-engine bombers, 42 single engine bombers, 28 fighters – 7 are F4F -, 31 PBY)
US Navy 232 (79 F4F fighters, 109 SBD dive bombers, 44 TBD torpedo bombers)
IJ Navy 246 (93 A6M fighters, 70 D3A dive bombers, 81 B5N torpedo bombers, 2 D4Y as fast recon)

US Task Force 17 (Yorktown) and US Task Force 10 (Enterprise and Hornet)

IJN Strikes vs. Midway

06:20 36 x D3A and 36 x BFN with 36 x A6M attack Midway
US CAP is 6 x F4F and 20 F2A – lose 2 x F4F and 12 x F2A
Japanese lose 4 x B5N and 1 A6M to CAP, 3 more aircraft to AAA

IJN Strikes vs US Carriers

First Strike detected 46nm
40 Aircraft - 18 Val, 10 x B5N, 12 x A6M
Intercepted by 4 x Wildcat at 15-20nm
13 x D3A and 3 x A6M destroyed, (2 more A6M heavily damaged by SBDs and turned back)
28 bombers
12:05 7 aircraft reach Yorktown: 3 Vals, 4 B5N
3 bomb hits, 2 torpedo hits

(Yorktown repaired and put back underway, Japanese thought it was sunk)

Second Strike detected at 45nm
Four F4F fighters sent more quickly, then two more.
10 B5N, 6 x A6M from Hiryu
Only two F4F initially intercept
5 x B5N and 2 x A6M destroyed by fighters and AAA, Yorktown hit by 2 torpedoes

CAP shoots down recon aircraft
(Thach Weave)

Total IJN aircraft losses during air combat: 23 bombers, 6 Fighters, + 2 fighters heavily damaged:
('as best I could determine')
4 B5N, 1 A6M + 3 bombers to AAA
11 D3A, 3 A6M +2 A6M
5 B5N, 2 A6M

I haven't found a good list with all the US aircraft losses in the air as distinct from when their CV sunk or blown up on the ground at Midway, but it looks like close at least 80 of the land based planes at Midway were lost. Most of the Japanese aircraft losses were due to their CV sinking.

US Strikes
07:10 6 x TBF Avenger and 4 USAAF B-26 (no hits)
07:55 16 x SBD from Midway attack (no hits)
08:10 17 x B-17s attack (no hits)
08:20 11 x SB2U-3 Vindicators from Midway attack (no hits)
09:25 15 x TBD Devastators from Hornet (no hits)
09:30 14 x TBD Devastators from Hornet (no hits)
10:00 12 x TBD Devastators from Yorktown (no hits)
10:25 30 x SBD from Enterprise (Akagi and Kaga)
10:25 17 x SBD from Yorktown (Soryu)
17:00 SBDs attack Hiryu

16:10 – 09:00 Yorktown, Soryu, Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu sink

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I'll do Eastern Solomons maybe tomorrow, maybe a couple of other actions worth looking at.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Oh and by the way, this is the unescorted G4M attack we had referred to upthread a couple of times.

Action off Bougainville - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This was on 20 February 1942

Two groups of G4M from Rabaul attacked a Task Force centered on the USS Lexington

The first group was wiped out by up to 16 x F4F and at least one SBD. The second group seems to have been mostly destroyed, by just 2 F4F aircraft.

Looks like the outcome was:
2 x F4F shot down, vs
17 x G4M shot down, 2 H6K shot down
(no hits)

Butch O'Hare shot down 3 of the G4M single handedly. One of the G4M was shot down by an SBD.

 

[RCAFson]

Ok so I've been compiling data, as promised.

Here is the quite gripping and highly dramatic story of Pedestal as best I can determine:

Pedestal
Entire convoy duration – 3-15 August

Operation Bellows (interesting to note – they put a constant speed propeller on the Spitfires for carrier takeoff.

Aug 11
Eagle Sunk (but launches Spitfires) losing 16 naval fighters
At dusk attack detected 50 nm
Recon Ju 88 flying too high for Sea Hurricanes to catch
27 x Ju 88 and 3 x He 111
4 X SH CAP, 19 x SH launched to intercept.
2 Ju 88s shot down by AAA. Some British fighters damaged by friendly fire.
(After Eagle sunk, Italian Submarine Dagabur rammed by HMS Wolverine and sunk with all hands!)

Aug 12
First Raid
Launched from Sardinia when 200 nm from convoy
Detected at 65 nm
19 x Ju 88 with 16 x Bf 109
8 x Sea Hurricanes CAP, + 11 SH and 4 Fulmars launched.
Intercepted at 25 nm
2 FAA fighters lost. Only 4 Ju 88s bomb the convoy, but all miss.

HMS Furious flew off Spitfires, not Eagle. Furious then returned to Gibraltar. The Spitfires were given new Hydromatic CS props that proved better for carrier TO.

The first raid on Aug 12 resulted in ~7 JU88s shot down, mainly by SH1Bs. AA made two kill claims. (Confirmed by Shores et all)

Additional recon aircraft were shot down on Aug 11 and early Aug 12. (I have to break your lengthy post into multiple replies.)

 

[RCAFson]

IJN Strikes vs US Carriers

First Strike detected 46nm
40 Aircraft - 18 Val, 10 x B5N, 12 x A6M
Intercepted by 4 x Wildcat at 15-20nm
13 x D3A and 3 x A6M destroyed, (2 more A6M heavily damaged by SBDs and turned back)
28 bombers
12:05 7 aircraft reach Yorktown: 3 Vals, 4 B5N
3 bomb hits, 2 torpedo hits

(Yorktown repaired and put back underway, Japanese thought it was sunk)

Second Strike detected at 45nm
Four F4F fighters sent more quickly, then two more.
10 B5N, 6 x A6M from Hiryu
Only two F4F initially intercept
5 x B5N and 2 x A6M destroyed by fighters and AAA, Yorktown hit by 2 torpedoes

The first strike was by 18 Vals and Zeros - no B5Ns. The initial interception by F4F-4s was followed by ~8 more F4F-4s. The IJN Zeros encountered a formation of SBDs which they engaged with 6 Zeros, and while they claimed no kills, none of the SBDs survived the encounter. Two Zeros were forced to return to Hiryu due to damage. Undoubtedly the 4 remaining Zeros had used up their cannon ammo and the other 6 Zeros seem to have lagged behind the Vals, allowing the initial Wildcat interception.

Yorktown was damaged and completely immobilized, by the Val attack, for ~ 1 hour and speed reduced by ~10 knots when the Kates attacked.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Given American inability to provide adequate fighter direction in that era, I'm not sure that any airframe would have made up those deficiencies.

 

[WARSPITER]

Given American inability to provide adequate fighter direction in that era, I'm not sure that any airframe would have made up those deficiencies.

Thus do we go back to the crux of the matter. Allied cooperation enhanced the abilities of the USN and the RN throughout the war.
The pairing of Saratoga and "Robin" in the Pacific benefitted both navies greatly and was to the detriment of the Axis countries.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yeah but I think you can see quite distinctly different patterns here so far.


You have a small group of fighters at Coral Sea and Midway, and they took significant losses to the A6Ms but they were pretty effective anyway, as relatively few Japanese aircraft actually managed to bomb the US ships (at least in the CV task forces). The F4Fs seemed to at least cause some harm to every Japanese raid. They also took a heavy toll on IJN strike aircraft, (13 x D3A and 3 x A6M destroyed in one raid at Midway). Very small numbers of CAP fighters seemed to have a significant impact (two F4F disrupted one of the waves of D3A at Coral Sea, and in that Feb 20 action gain just two F4F took out 4 G4Ms and broke up their second wave). But even a handful of Japanese bombers could wreak havoc (3 Vals and 4 B5N broke through the defenses at Midway, but scored 3 bomb hits and 2 torpedo hits!)


The Spitfires from Malta seemed to be more effective as CAP than the carrier fighters, (turning around at least one major raid of 18 Ju 88s for example) and shooting down quite a few enemy aircraft. Land based aircraft (Beaufighters and Liberators) were also important in attacking Axis airbases and degrading their strike capability already by Aug 12.

At Pedestal, by contrast from Coral Sea, fairly large numbers of Axis warplanes made it through the screen over and over again. The CAP seemed to substantially stop the first raid (only 4 out of 19 Ju 88s made attacks) but was apparently far less effective against the subsequent strikes (for example 10 x SM.84, 37 x Ju 88, and 21 x SM.79 all in the second raid on Aug 12). Sometimes the Axis strike aircraft didn't seem to be effected by the CAP at all. But they typically missed anyway.

The Axis aircraft were not very accurate in comparison to the Japanese. For example 35 Ju 88 and 13 Ju 87 in the seventh raid on the 13th, 35 Italian level and torpedo bombers right after that, with no CAP and not much AAA left, yet all with no hits. If that had been D3A, B5N, or even G4Ms I think a bunch of ships would have been sunk.

The most telling damage at Pedestal in fact was IMO from Axis submarines (5 or 6 ships sunk), E-boats (6 ships sunk), and the one night attack after dark on August 12 (4 or 5 ships sunk, depending on whether you credit the subs one 1 or 2 of those).

There were indeed ground based Japanese bombers attacking the US fleet at Coral Sea (12 G4Ms attcking TF 17.3 cruisers), as well as flying recon. But they didn't directly attack the CVs. And they missed, losing 4. Their potential still had to be taken into consideration of course. Why the Japanese didn't send them all against the US ships I don't know.


The Italians seem to have had a major problem with their ordinance. I counted at least five hits (3 torpedoes from SM.79s, 2 small bombs dropped by Re 2001) which potentially could have been telling but either didn't work at all or had no significant effect.
There were indeed Re 2001 involved, and even a few G.50. Somehow the Re 2001 don't seem to be included in the "Order of Battle" I could find.
Those Re 2001 seemed to have potential as bombers! Though maybe they don't get in so easily if they are carrying heavier ordinance.
The SBDs did actually shoot down several Japanese planes, contrary to some claims here.
The Japanese bombers scored telling hits a lot more often per strike aircraft than the Germans or Italians.
The SBDs got a lot of hits too. At Coral Sea for example - 13 bomb hits on Shoho, 2 SBDs attack Shokaku and one hits.
The TBDs were of course useless, as were most of the Axis land based strike aircraft in that 500+ aircraft armada.
The only aircraft which seemed to get a fair number of hits (that actually blew up) were the Ju 87, SM.79, and Ju 88, in that descending order. But nowhere near the same rate as D3A.
Land based aircraft did make a notable difference in Pedestal. The Spitfires and Beaufighters protected the fleet on the 13th. Beaufighters are already flying over the British fleet by the evening of Aug 12 (they got shot at by their own warships)
When the damaged carrier planes were being recovered, the Japanese had a lot more write offs, this may be where the lack of armor and SS fuel tanks made a difference.


Both at Coral Sea and Midway luck, chance or fate (whatever you want to call it) had a lot to do with the outcomes, as did obviously broken Japanese codes. Most of the CVs on both sides were missed at Coral Sea, and the main Japanese carrier force never attacked the US carriers other than poor Yorktown, whose resurrection helped to fool them into thinking they were hitting three different carriers.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Though there were a lot of aircraft attacking at Pedestal, they came in smaller waves and none of the Axis attacks were escorted by very large numbers of fighters. It was roughly the same amount in any one wave as in the Japanese attacks. The most Japanese figthers at once at Coral Sea was 18 A6M. The largest fighter cover force I see at Pedestal is 21 Bf 109, most are more like 12.

 

[RCAFson]

Though there were a lot of aircraft attacking at Pedestal, they came in smaller waves and none of the Axis attacks were escorted by very large numbers of fighters. It was roughly the same amount in any one wave as in the Japanese attacks. The most Japanese figthers at once at Coral Sea was 18 A6M. The largest fighter cover force I see at Pedestal is 21 Bf 109, most are more like 12.

The Axis formations came in close enough in time, in each wave, that it was impossible for the CAP to concentrate on any single formation and 12 Me109Fs, for example, would probably have outnumbered the CAP directed against any single formation.

 

[RCAFson]

Given American inability to provide adequate fighter direction in that era, I'm not sure that any airframe would have made up those deficiencies.

One big issue was that while 1942 era radar could give direction and speed of an enemy formation, it could not give accurate altitude information. While the F4F-4s could be vectored towards an incoming raid, their poor climb rate made interception difficult if the raid was too high, and if the F4Fs were ordered to higher altitudes the time that it took to climb delayed interception.

 

[EwenS]

One big issue was that while 1942 era radar could give direction and speed of an enemy formation, it could not give accurate altitude information. While the F4F-4s could be vectored towards an incoming raid, their poor climb rate made interception difficult if the raid was too high, and if the F4Fs were ordered to higher altitudes the time that it took to climb delayed interception.

The RN began to develop techniques for estimating height with its metric Type 79/279/281 radars from 1940. The radar officer in Victorious contributed greatly to this. In exercises over 2 weeks in June 1942 he was able to develop things to the extent that it became known as "the Contour Method".
"It was found that height estimates by this method were often correct to 1,000 feet, and that the radar operator could maintain plots on several aircraft at one time."
Radar at Sea by Derek Howse, Appendix C: Height Determination by Radar.